In this episode, host and math professor Anna Stokke interviews Mike Petrilli, President of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, about the role of standardized testing in K–12 education. They discuss the benefits and criticisms of standardized tests, the methodologies behind tests like NAEP, international comparisons with PISA and TIMSS, long-term trends in student performance, and the consequences of declines in student achievement.

Highlights include a discussion of Mississippi's educational success despite high poverty rates, and the potential influences of modern educational policies and smartphones. Mike Petrilli emphasizes the importance of accurate measurement for policymaking and shares advice on influencing educational policy. This episode is a must-listen for educators, policymakers, parents, and anyone interested in the future of education.

FREE WEBINAR: The Science of Math Instruction: Using Evidence-Based Practices in the Classroom, May 8, 2025. Registration link: https://home.edweb.net/webinar/mathskills20250508/

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:03:18] Discussion on standardized testing

[00:06:14] Criticisms of standardized testing

[00:12:25] Frequency and levels of testing

[00:20:04] International perspectives on testing

[00:23:11] Understanding NAEP

[00:28:07] Recent trends in NAEP scores

[00:28:41] Impact of the pandemic

[00:31:16] Pre-pandemic declines

[00:32:26] Comparing international trends: PISA scores

[00:33:08] The role of smartphones

[00:35:26] TIMSS scores

[00:38:16] Long-term impact of declining academic achievement

[00:39:20] Efforts to address learning loss

[00:42:12] States that bucked the trend: the “Mississippi miracle”

[00:46:44] Low-performing states

[00:49:54] Future strategies for education systems

[00:53:22] Influencing educational policy

[00:55:49] Conclusion and final thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep 33. Educational leadership: Improving math and literacy with Scott Hill https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-vpzf8-16d0c17

Ep 32. Identifying and educating advanced students with Jonathan Plucker https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-y6cxs-16ad6f1

Ep 25. Understanding reform math ideology with Tom Loveless https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a

Ep 18. Education myth-busting with Daisy Christodoulou https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-z2q9q-14ce080

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-45-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-45-resources

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Mazamorra, Tarte Tatin, Willow Willow, Betty Dear, Lissa Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

Dr. Anna Stokke and guest Dr. Zach Groshell answer listener questions in a special mailbag episode. They cover strategies for managing varying levels of math proficiency in the classroom, critique the Building Thinking Classrooms approach, and discuss whether number talks should be prioritized for developing math fact fluency. This discussion provides practical insights and critiques on current educational practices to help teachers improve math instruction.

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 Introduction

02:44 Listener Question: Differentiating Direct Instruction

05:52 Zach's advice on differentiation

10:10 Listener Question: Building Thinking Classrooms

11:20 Are multiple access points effective?

15:14 Critique of Building Thinking Classrooms

19:03 Does research support using BTC?

20:53 Is everyone doing it wrong?

22:17 Observing BTC in action

23:46 Defining thinking and why mimicking is important

27:30 Permanent vs. non-permanent learning surfaces

29:04 The practicality of mini whiteboards

31:34 Advice from Anna & Zach on whether to use BTC

36:20 Listener question: Number talks and math fact fluency

37:53 Critique of number talks

40:09 Using effective methods for building math fact automaticity

42:19 Advice on mental math strategies

44:18 Using instructional time efficiently

46:21 Conclusion and book description

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep 10 Maximizing learning through explicit instruction with Zach Groshell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-px8h6-1443528

Ep 36 How to build automaticity with math facts: A practical guide https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3ny3k-17323a9

Ep 2 Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-zgw6i-13b33df Ep 3 The Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d

Ep 23 Red flags in education research with Ben Solomon https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-cp5xt-156072c Ep 29 Math fact crisis: strategies for improving numeracy with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-u9y84-165d773 Ep 30 Math Fluency matters with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pj6z6-166741e

Ep 41 Supporting students with math difficulties with Sarah Powell

https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-ciqgm-17def6b

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-44-transcript

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it

Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

Join Anna Stokke in conversation with Dr. Jamie Metsala, one of two content area experts on the Ontario Human Rights Commission’s Right to Read public inquiry. Jamie shares her expertise on the importance of strong early instruction in foundational reading skills, the pitfalls of balanced literacy, and the urgent need for evidence-based practices in education. They explore the role of parent advocacy and the far-reaching implications of the Right to Read report, not just for Ontario, but for education systems across Canada and beyond.

Jamie explains why universal screening matters, how structured literacy benefits all readers, and what effective intervention looks like. They also discuss the importance of teacher preparation programs and ongoing professional development to equip educators with the tools they need to teach reading successfully.

With many provinces and states still relying on ineffective reading instruction, systemic change is critical. Jamie offers valuable advice for advocates, making this conversation essential listening for educators, parents, and anyone advocating for evidence-based education reform.

researchED Toronto 2025: https://researched.org.uk/event/researched-toronto-2025/

NOTE: The resource page contains links to reports, articles, and websites mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-43-resources

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:00] Introduction [00:04:06] The Ontario Human Rights Commission Right to Read inquiry [00:06:40] Reading achievement in Ontario and other provinces [00:13:19] The impact of balanced literacy and its flawed assumptions [00:19:21] What science says about teaching foundational reading skills [00:29:15] Universal screening and early interventions [00:32:30] Problems with Reading Recovery [00:36:32] How Canadian provinces are responding to the Right to Read inquiry [00:41:10] Teacher preparation and the resistance to change [00:50:25] Challenges in implementing evidence-based literacy instruction [00:52:06] Debunking myths: Do all students learn differently? [00:54:20] Structured literacy and the importance of fluency [01:00:43] Consequences of poor reading instruction [01:06:50] Advice for advocates [01:12:47] Final thoughts: The future of reading and math education

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep 20 Reading and math: Parallels and pitfalls with Matthew Burns https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-8aj3f-1508af6

Ep 27 Using evidence in education with Pamela Snow https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-jc9mq-161ecac

Ep 29 Math fact crisis: strategies for improving numeracy with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-u9y84-165d773

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-43-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-43-resources

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Proliferate, Balti, Momentary Ease Podington Bear – Camp, Kitten, Squirrel Commotion

Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

Join Anna Stokke in conversation with Dr. Alex Smith, Director of Curriculum, and Justin Skycak, Director of Analytics, from Math Academy. Math Academy is an AI-powered online learning platform designed around science of learning principles. They discuss Bloom's 2 sigma problem and explore how Math Academy aims to address it. They also explain how the platform leverages knowledge graphs to support mastery learning and highlight key instructional strategies such as worked examples, spaced practice, and the testing effect.

They explore how Math Academy manages cognitive load to optimize learning as well as its success with adult learners and advanced students. They also discuss the concrete-pictorial-abstract approach in math instruction. To wrap up, Justin and Alex share exciting updates and future plans for Math Academy. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in math education.

NOTE: The resource page contains resources and research articles mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-42-resources

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 Introduction

04:41 Bloom's 2 sigma problem

10:11 Mastery learning

13:17 Math knowledge graph

21:03 Importance of prerequisite skills

26:42 Worked examples

33:11 Concrete-pictorial-abstract discussion

40:56 Incorporating spaced practice

47:47 Leveraging the testing effect

52:14 Independent learning and incentives

55:51 Math Academy for adult learners

01:01:49 Accelerating advanced students

01:09:57 The future of Math Academy

01:13:26 Final thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep 32. Identifying and educating advanced students with Jonathan Plucker https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-y6cxs-16ad6f1

Ep 15. Modern relevance in the math curriculum with Brian Conrad https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gek66-148967a

Ep 7. How to excel in math and other tough subjects with Barbara Oakley https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bqs8p-14068f2

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-42-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-42-resources

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Balti, Betty Dear, Willow Willow, Partly Sage Podington Bear – Camp, Kitten

Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

Join Anna Stokke in conversation with Dr. Sarah Powell, a leading expert in teaching students with math difficulties. They discuss the shortcomings of a recent joint position statement by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM) and the Council for Exceptional Children (CEC) on teaching math to students with disabilities.

Sarah critiques the statement’s failure to include critical evidence-based practices, such as explicit instruction, and its reliance on vague or unsupported recommendations. She highlights research-backed strategies that can truly help students struggling with math, emphasizing the ethical responsibility of educators, policymakers, and advocates to ensure effective math instruction. Sarah also co-authored a response to the position statement.

Note: The resource page for this episode contains a link to the NCTM/CEC position statement, Sarah’s group’s response, and other articles mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-41-resources

TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Introduction 05:06 Understanding math disabilities 08:19 The NCTM/CEC position statement 17:06 Does growth mindset help math outcomes? 17:53 Is UDL evidence based? 21:57 Evidence-based practices for teaching math 29:07 The omission of explicit instruction 30:55 Why explicit instruction is important 35:51 The IES practice guide 38:50 Consequences of poor instruction 41:44 The Influence of NCTM and CEC 43:26 Recommendations for effective math instruction 49:43 Preventing math difficulties 56:02 Final thoughts RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep 29 Math fact crisis: Strategies for improving numeracy with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-u9y84-165d773

Ep 30 Math Fluency matters with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pj6z6-166741e

Ep 25 Understanding math reform ideology with Tom Loveless https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a

Ep 21 The right to learn math with Daniel Ansari https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-4nv9n-1527568

Ep 3 The Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-41-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-41-resources

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Thannoid, Tarte Tatin, Cornicob, Momentary Ease Podington Bear – Proliferate

Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna Stokke welcomes Dr. Therese Markow, Professor Emeritus at the University of California, San Diego, and host of the Critically Speaking podcast. They discuss the critical intersection of math and science education.

Therese shares her firsthand experiences as a geneticist and post-secondary educator, highlighting the alarming decline in basic numeracy among students and its impact on their success in fields like biology and genetics. The conversation covers fascinating studies linking math experience to logical reasoning and brain development. Therese tackles the question of whether math skills have a genetic component.

They also discuss societal and educational implications of weak math skills, including how some popular teaching philosophies might be failing students. Whether you're an educator, a math or science enthusiast scientist, or simply passionate about improving education, this episode offers something for everyone.

NOTE: The resource page contains research articles mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-40-resources

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 Introduction

03:24 Math skills in science students

11:25 Impact on university curriculum standards

19:36 Links between math and logic skills

28:03 Are math abilities genetic?

28:40 Heritability studies: Twins and math abilities

38:06 Effective math teaching influences math ability

41:27 Gender and math: Debunking myths

42:48 Personal stories about math interest

50:56 Importance of basic math skills in life

52:58 Conclusion and final Thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep 2. Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df

Ep 16. Applying cognitive science to education with Daniel Willingham https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-szugf-149dff1

Ep 22. Mindsets and educational misconceptions with Carl Hendrick https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-78zv9-15493b1

Ep 35. Preparation for university math with Darja Barr and Dan Wolczuk https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-b8ssx-171a631

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-40-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-40-resources

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – Balti, Cases to Rest Podington Bear – No Squirrel Commotion, Kitten

Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

Join Anna Stokke in conversation with Dr. Marcy Stein, professor emeritus from the University of Washington, Tacoma, about her firsthand experience with Direct Instruction (DI) and Project Follow Through—the world’s largest educational experiment. Despite showing DI’s effectiveness with at-risk students, the results were largely ignored.

Marcy shares insights into the origins of DI, its instructional design, and emphasizes that it’s effective for all students, not just those struggling academically. She also addresses common misconceptions, walks through a typical DI math lesson, and gives advice on how to bridge skill gaps in the classroom. This episode unpacks the story of Project Follow Through and the ongoing fight for evidence-based education.

NOTE: The resource page contains resources and research articles mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-39-resources

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:00] Introduction [00:03:52] Marcy Stein’s background [00:07:11] Origins of Direct Instruction [00:11:26] Overview of Project Follow Through [00:14:40] Instructional models and results of Project Follow Through [00:23:30] What makes DI effective? [00:25:12] Why were the results of PFT ignored? [00:29:28] Difference between DI and di [00:31:52] Instructional design in DI [00:37:50] Pitfalls of multiple strategies [00:42:55] Understanding instructional delivery in DI [00:45:51] Managing varying abilities in the classroom [00:48:28] Addressing prerequisite skills in older students [00:52:40] Spiral vs. strand curriculum [00:55:12] A typical DI math lesson structure [00:59:34] List of DI math programs [01:01:17] Common misconceptions about DI [01:05:03] Challenges and resistance to DI [01:09:02] Role of leaders and faculty in DI implementation [01:13:51] Final thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep 34 Transforming education through behaviour science with Kimberly Berens https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-9tfz7-16f2e02

Ep 31 Exploring evidence for equitable education with Nidhi Sachdeva and Jim Hewitt https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-fjdnt-1685615

Ep 20 Reading and math: Parallels and pitfalls with Matthew Burns https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-8aj3f-1508af6

Ep 10 Maximizing learning through explicit instruction with Zach Groshell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-px8h6-1443528

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-39-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-39-resources

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions –Tall Harvey, Little Poder, Momentary Ease, Betty Dear Podington Bear – Camp, Kitten

Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

Join math professor, Anna Stokke, in conversation with Blake Harvard, a secondary teacher in Alabama. They discuss insights from his new book, Do I Have Your Attention?, including how he incorporates cognitive psychology into his teaching.

Their conversation explores topics like cognitive architecture, memory constraints, attention contagion and common learning pitfalls. Blake provides practical strategies for implementing retrieval practice and spaced practice, highlighting their benefits in reducing test anxiety and enhancing long term learning outcomes.

The episode wraps up with a thought-provoking discussion on creativity, where Blake challenges the notion that traditional schooling stifles creativity—arguing instead that a strong knowledge foundation fosters it.

Whether you’re an educator or simply curious about the science of learning, this episode offers valuable insights for teaching and learning in any subject.

NOTE: The resource page contains resources and research articles mentioned in the episode: annastokke.com/ep-38-resources

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 Introduction

02:44 Blake's Teaching Journey

03:13 Discovering cognitive psychology

05:18 Understanding memory constraints

13:55 Attention contagion

21:54 Overcoming overconfidence in learning

25:32 The role of forgetting in learning

27:53 Maximizing learning with effective strategies

28:36 The power of retrieval and spaced practice

29:45 Retrieval practice in math

33:10 Diminishing cues retrieval practice

36:21 The Brain Book Buddy strategy

41:13 The importance of honest self-assessment

42:56 Reducing test anxiety with retrieval practice

45:48 The benefits of spaced practice

47:06 Last lesson, last week, last month strategy

49:38 Debunking myths about creativity in education

52:48 Final thoughts and advice for teachers

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Ep. 26 Cognitive load theory in math class with David Morkunas https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-znh5k-15f7937

Ep. 13 Powerful teaching with Patrice Bain https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-d77g4-14602e3

Ep 4 Cognitive load theory with Greg Ashman https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-thbad-13cea56

Ep. 2 Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-zgw6i-13b33df

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-38-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/ep-38-resources

MUSIC

Intro and Outro: Coma Media – Catch it Blue Dot Sessions – No Squirrel Connection, Thannoid, Momentary Ease, Betty Dear Podington Bear – Camp Scott Holmes – Happy Logo

Website: www.annastokke.com

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social