In this conversation, Bill and Clarissa discuss the importance of effective conversations with “Agile Conversations” co-author Jeffrey Frederick. Overall, the episode emphasizes the power of conversations in reducing unnecessary pain and improving collaboration in various domains. They explore the concept of Taylorism and its impact on management philosophies, highlighting the need for a more human-centered approach. The conversation also touches on the biases present in traditional auditing processes and the importance of recognizing and overcoming them. In this episode, Jeffrey Fredrick discusses the importance of effective conversations in auditing and other professional contexts. He emphasizes the need for alignment and shared understanding in conversations, especially when auditors and clients have different perspectives. Jeffrey introduces the concept of the Four Rs (Record, Reflect, Revise, Role Play) as a tool for improving conversational skills. He explains each step of the Four Rs and highlights the importance of genuine curiosity and transparency in conversations. Jeffrey also discusses the ladder of inference and how it can help auditors and clients overcome challenges related to understanding each other's businesses. He concludes by emphasizing the need for practice and continuous improvement in conversational skills.

• Read the book “Agile Conversations” at https://itrevolution.com/product/agile-conversations/
• Learn more about Agile Conversations at https://www.agileconversations.com
• Check out Jeffrey’s Podcast “Troubleshooting Agile” at https://agileconversations.com/troubleshooting-agile-podcast/
• Explore CITCON (Continuous Integration Conference) at https://citconf.com
• Follow Jeffrey on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick
• Follow Jeffrey on X (Twitter) at https://twitter.com/jtf

• Effective conversations are essential in Agile and DevOps practices.
• Recognizing and overcoming biases is crucial in auditing and other domains.
• Conversations can help reduce unnecessary pain and improve collaboration. Effective conversations require alignment and shared understanding.
• The Four Rs (Record, Reflect, Revise, Role Play) can improve conversational skills.
• Genuine curiosity and transparency are essential in conversations.
• The ladder of inference can help auditors and clients understand each other's businesses.

• 00:00 Introductions
• 07:36 Taylorism and Modern Management
• 12:41 Reducing Suffering and Unnecessary Pain
• 16:13 The Negative and Positive Aspects of Taylorism
• 21:26 Spotting Taylorism and the Need for Change
• 24:47 Conversations as a Tool to Overcome Biases
• 27:18 Misalignment in Auditing
• 25:36 The Four Rs
• 29:20 Using the Four Rs in Conversations
• 31:46 The Record Step
• 33:14 The Reflect Step
• 25:07 The Revise Step
• 36:02 The Role Play Step
• 39:28 Leveraging Conversational Concepts in Auditing
• 44:24 Practice and Skills Gap