My guest for this episode of Fawaz Gerges of the London School of Economics where he is the Emirates Professorship in Contemporary Middle East Studies. Fawaz earned his doctorate at Oxford and has taught there, as well as at Harvard and Columbia. He has been a research scholar at Princeton and is the author of 10 books on the Middle East and his articles and editorials have appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, The Christian Science Monitor, The Guardian, The Baltimore Sun, The Independent (London), Al Hayat (London), Foreign Policy, Newsweek, The National Interest, Democracy: a Journal of Ideas, Middle East Journal, Survival, Al Mustqbal al-Arabi, Middle East Insight, and many others.

Gerges has given scores of interviews for various media outlets throughout the world, including ABC, CNN, BBC, PBS, CBS, NPR, CBC, Sky News, Al Jazeera, and LBC. He has been a guest on The Charlie Rose Show, The Oprah Winfrey Show, ABC Nightline, World News Tonight, Rachel Maddow Show (MSNBC), This Week, Good Morning America and other prominent shows. He was a senior ABC television news analyst from 2000 until 2007.

In this episode we first discuss Fawaz’s most recent book, What Really Went Wrong: The West and the Failure of Democracy in the Middle East. This is an excellent historical study of the impact of US interventionist foreign policy in the Middle East in the post-WW2 era. It shows how the pursuit of stability, open commodity markets and anti-communism led the US to support and ally with anti-democratic autocrats throughout the region who eliminated legitimate nationalistic (and largely secular and democratic) political leaders. We see the consequences of these interventions in the region today.

We then turn to a discussion of the current catastrophe in the Gaza, Israel and Lebanon.

Fawaz and I disagree on many issues. For example, he paraphrases towards the end of our conversation a school of thought which has come to see Israel as the last, ‘Settler Colonial’ state. I think this way of approaching the situation is an invitation to endless violence and despair. For a history of the evolution of this approach, I recommend On Settler Colonialism: Ideology, Violence and Justice by Adam Kirsch. There are also many things Fawaz says with which I agree. For example, his historical analysis of the monumental failure of US foreign policy seems to be me to be compelling. But my role as the host of this podcast is not to be a judge of other’s views. In fact, what I agree with or do not agree with is not relevant. My job is to bring you views which may challenge your own; views which help us to understand the ways in which understandings and beliefs can be fundamentally different.

The only way forward is to start with a genuine curiosity of what others think, believe and feel. Just as importantly, curiosity does not imply agreement. Too many times we pretend to attempt to understand something by seeking out others to confirm what we want to, or already believe. It is much better to be challenged by difference. From that starting point, we can, perhaps, begin to be able to predict and influence the future for the better.

Fawaz is a thoughtful, careful, prolific and elegant scholar. While I may differ with him in some areas, I have never questioned his fundamental decency and humanity. I always learn and am challenged by our conversations together - which is a great gift. I hope you enjoy our conversation as well!

Citations

Gerges, F. (2024) What Really Went Wrong: The West and the Failure of Democracy in the Middle East. London: Yale University Press.

Kirsch, Adam (2024) On Settler Colonialism: Ideology, Violence and Justice. WV Norton & Co.

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