When we think of the Apostle Paul, we often picture a stern, unyielding figure - the finger-wagging scold, laying down the law for the early Christian communities. But my guest today, Nijay Gupta, is here to shatter that perception and reveal the beating heart at the center of Paul's theology. In Nijay's new book, "The Affections of Christ Jesus," he makes a captivating case that what truly animates Paul's writings is an overwhelming, spilling-over affection - a profound, personal love that should reorient our entire understanding of the gospel message. As we dive into this conversation, Nijay makes the case that the dominant theological frameworks we've used to interpret Paul's work - the camps of justification by faith, the apocalyptic Paul, salvation history are missing something. He argues that what's been missing is a central focus on love, on the emotional, relational dimension that lies at the core of Paul's vision. And Nijay doesn't stop there. He also brings in the insights of Augustine, the great theologian of love, exploring how our deepest loves - not just our intellectual beliefs - are what truly shape the trajectory of our lives. So join me as we explore the affections that lie at the center of Paul's writings - the love that should be the starting point, not the afterthought, of our theology.

Nijay Gupta (DPhil, University of Durham) has written several academic books including Paul and the Language of Faith, and Tell Her Story: How Women Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church. He has co-edited The State of New Testament Studies, and The State of Pauline Studies. Nijay co-chairs the Pauline Theology seminar of the Institute for Biblical Research and serves as a senior translator for the New Living Translation.

Nijay's Book:

The Affections of Christ Jesus

Nijay's Recommendation:

Becoming the Pastor's Wife

The Wild Robot

Shrinking

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There's a crisis of good news in our world today. The message of the gospel - the radical, transformative love of God poured out through Jesus Christ - has become muted, obscured by the noise of culture wars and the bitter taste of Christendom's failures. For many, the idea of "evangelism" conjures up images of slick preachers and aggressive door-to-door campaigns, leaving a sour note where there should be a jubilant melody. But my guest today, Derwin Gray, is on a mission to reclaim that melody - to help believers rediscover the joy and power of sharing the good news, not as a chore or a weapon, but as an overflow of the love that has set their own hearts ablaze. As the founding pastor of Transformation Church, Derwin has witnessed firsthand the way a community can be "lit up with love" - a people so captivated by the grace of God that it spills out into every corner of their lives. In our conversation, he unpacks a vision of evangelism that is relational, empathetic, and rooted in the overwhelming reality of God's affection. It's a perspective that has the potential to rekindle our passion for the gospel and reshape how we engage a world that is, in many ways, starving for the good news. So join me as we dive into Derwin's story, and discover how the simple act of receiving God's love can transform us into everyday missionaries, compelled to share the most life-giving news the world has ever known.

Dr. Derwin L. Gray is the co-founding and Lead Pastor of Transformation Church, just outside of Charlotte, NC. He is also the author of several books, including “How to Heal Our Racial Divide: What the Bible Says, and What the First Century Christians Knew about Racial Reconciliation." You can follow him at @derwinlgray on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, as well as www.derwinlgray.com.

Derwin's Book:

Lit Up With Love

Derwin's Recommendation:
Paul: A Biography

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What if the way we've been reading the Bible has been missing something essential? What if the Scriptures aren't just a collection of propositional truths, but a grand narrative - a story that Jesus Himself used to unveil the deepest realities of the Kingdom of God? That's the argument made by author and storyteller Daniel Schwabauer as we dive into the power of story in this conversation. Dan points us to a pivotal moment in the Gospels - when Jesus tells the parable of the sower in Mark 4. Here, he reveals a secret about the Kingdom, saying "The secret of the Kingdom of God has been given to you." But why parables? Why not just lay out the truth plainly? Well, Jesus was doing something profound - He was inviting His disciples, and us, into a narrative journey. One that requires engagement, interpretation, and the work of the Holy Spirit to truly understand. By recovering this narrative lens, the church can rediscover the true power of the gospel message. It's a fascinating exploration of how the way we communicate shapes what we communicate - and how applying the principles of great storytelling can breathe new life into the ancient story of redemption. Join us as we discover the God of story.

Daniel Schwabauer, ThD, teaches English at MidAmerica Nazarene University and writes award-winning fantasy and science fiction novels. He earned an MA in creative writing under science fiction legend James Gunn and completed his doctoral work in semiotic theology with Leonard Sweet. He lives in Olathe, Kansas, with his wife and dogs.

Dan's Book:

The God of Story

Dan's Recommendations:

The Master and His Emissary

The Divided Brain and the Search for Meaning

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I’m excited to have Skye Jethani back on the podcast. When we talk about justice, we often think in binary terms - judgment or mercy, punishment or forgiveness. But as Skye argues, the biblical vision of justice is far more nuanced and holistic. At its core, justice is about the proper ordering of relationships - between humanity and God, as well as between individuals and communities. It's not just about retribution, but about restoring the shalom, the wholeness and flourishing, that God intended for his creation. This understanding upends many of our assumptions about justice, both in the church and in society. He challenges the popular American Christian idea that justice is something the government does, not the church. And he unpacks how this bifurcation between the "vertical" and "horizontal" dimensions of justice has deeply distorted our theology and our engagement with the world. But Skye also offers a compelling alternative - a vision of justice that holds together judgment and mercy, individual transformation and systemic change. It's a vision rooted in the cosmic victory of Christ on the cross, where the powers of evil were defeated and a new order was established. This is a conversation that spans creation, Christology, and the church's role in pursuing righteousness. Skye draws on Scripture, church history, and his own experience to paint a rich, nuanced portrait of justice that challenges us to rethink our assumptions and expand our imaginations. So join us as we reckon with justice.

Skye Jethani is an award-winning author, speaker, and co-host of the Holy Post Podcast and co-founder of Holy Post Media. Skye has written more than a dozen books and served as an editor and executive at Christianity Today for more than a decade. Raised in a religiously and ethnically diverse family, his curiosity about faith led him to study comparative religion before entering seminary and pastoral ministry. With a unique ability to connect Christian thought and contemporary culture, his voice has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, and The Washington Post, and he’s spoken to audiences throughout the world as diverse as the U.S. Naval Academy, The Chautauqua Institution, and the Lausanne Movement.

Skye's Book:

What If Jesus Was Serious About Justice?

Skye's Recommendations:

How Far to the Promised Land

The Ballot and the Bible

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Malcolm Foley has written a book that addresses some of the deepest and most intractable problems in American life - racism, violence, and greed. But his diagnosis is not what you might expect. Foley argues that the root of these evils is not just racial animus or a lust for power, but something far more fundamental - the worship of Mammon, the love of money and material wealth. In this conversation, Foley takes us on a sweeping journey, from the history of lynching in America to the cosmic battle between God and the idolatry of riches. He shows how greed has fueled the construction of race, the cycles of violence, and the unjust structures that continue to oppress the vulnerable. But he also offers a radical vision of how the church can model an alternative way of living - one defined by economic solidarity, creative nonviolence, and prophetic truth-telling. This is a conversation that addresses some of the most pressing moral and spiritual challenges of our time. Foley's insights are both unsettling and profoundly hopeful, pointing the way towards the redemption and reconciliation of all things. So join us and discover the anti-greed gospel.

Malcolm Foley is Pastor at Mosaic Waco, Special advisor to the President for Equity and Campus Engagement at Baylor University and author of The Anti-Greed Gospel. Malcom received his MDiv at Yale Divinity School and his PhD in Religion at Baylor.

Malcolm's Book:

The Anti-Greed Gospel

Malcom's Recommendations:

Households of Faith

The Black Tax

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This is a conversation with Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost that gets to the heart of what the church is called to be - a community of adventure, risk, and mission. Alan and Mike have revised and re-released their book "The Faith of Leap" that challenges the church to shed its obsession with safety and security, and instead embrace the risky, liminal spaces where the kingdom of God breaks through. We'll explore how the church has become too inwardly focused, too preoccupied with maintaining its own institutions, when it should be a sent people, a missional movement unleashed into the world. Alan and Michael will share powerful stories of ordinary believers taking courageous leaps of faith, and how their example can inspire us all. This is a conversation about rediscovering the church's essential calling - to be a community that encounters the living God, and then boldly steps out in response, ready to see the reign of God extended in our neighborhoods and cities. It's a call to adventure, to risk, to the kind of faith that changes everything. This conversation will challenge our assumptions about what the church is supposed to be. Too often, we've allowed the church to become a place of comfort and security, when it's meant to be a launching pad for mission and transformation. Alan and Michael are inviting us to rethink everything, to let the call of the kingdom reshape our understanding of ecclesiology. This is a conversation that I believe has profound implications, not just for the church, but for the way we engage the world around us. So join us and recover the faith of leap.

Michael and Alan's Book:

The Faith of Leap

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Today, I am excited to welcome you to this conversation with Charlie Peacock. Charlie is a gifted musician, producer, and storyteller whose life and art intertwine in the most captivating way. In this episode, we're going to dive deep into the roots and rhythms that have shaped Charlie's remarkable journey. We'll uncover the hidden history of his family's racial identity, explore the formative experiences that forged his singular musical talent, and trace the sacred dance between his spirituality and artistry. This is a winding, improvisational odyssey - filled with moments of reckoning, redemption, and the irrepressible drive to create. And in sharing it with us, Charlie invites us to reflect on our own roots, to listen for the rhythms that course through our veins, and to consider how the very things that make us who we are might also be the wellspring of our most profound expressions. So get ready because we're about to embark on a journey through the landscape of a life fully, beautifully lived. So join us as we discover roots and rhythm.

Charlie Peacock is a 6x Grammy Award–winning, Billboard Chart–topping music producer, composer, and recording artist. He is responsible for developing and producing the Americana-Folk duo The Civil Wars and the bands Switchfoot and The Lone Bellow. Charlie is a co-founder of the Art House, Wedgwood Circle, and founder/director Emeritus of the Commercial Music Program at Lipscomb University. He has produced music for film and television, including A Walk to Remember, Chris Cornell's "Misery Chain" from the soundtrack of 12 Years a Slave, and "Hush," the title theme to the AMC drama Turn: Washington’s Spies. Named by Billboard’s Encyclopedia of Record Producers as one of the 500 most important producers in music history, Charlie is also a three-time recipient of the Gospel Music Award for Producer of the Year. His songwriter credits include two multiplatinum evergreen songs, “Every Heartbeat” (Amy Grant) and “In the Light” (DC Talk). His books include Why Everything That Doesn’t Matter, Matters So Much, New Way to Be Human, At the Crossroads, and a contribution to It Was Good: Making Music to the Glory of God. Charlie is the Sr. Music Editor for Christianity Today and host of the Christianity Today Podcast, Music and Meaning. Notably, Charlie’s songs and productions exceed 25 million sales. Eerdmans will publish his memoir, Roots & Rhythm, on February 4, 2025. He has been married to author Andi Ashworth for nearly fifty years and they have two grown, married children and four grandchildren.

Charlie's Book:
Roots and Rhythm

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What does it mean to be a family in the kingdom of God? Not the idealized, airbrushed version we so often see, but the messy, beautiful, ever-evolving reality of what it means to be bound together in love. Too often, we approach family life with a set of assumptions - a blueprint we've been handed, a script we feel we must follow. But what if the way of Jesus calls us to something deeper, something more improvisational? What if being a family in the kingdom means being apprenticed to love, learning moment by moment how to will the good of one another, how to discern what faithful living looks like in our particular context? That's the invitation we'll be exploring today with my guest, Emily Hunter McGowin. Emily has thought deeply about these questions, not just in the abstract, but in the crucible of her own family story - a story of brokenness and redemption, of unlearning old ways and embracing the subversive, liberating vision of Jesus. So let's dive in. Let's wrestle with what it means to be a family that reflects the upside-down values of God's reign. To move beyond simplistic formulas and enter into the holy, gritty work of loving one another as we've been loved. The journey won't be easy, but I believe it's one that holds the promise of true, lasting freedom. So join us.

Emily Hunter McGowin (PhD, University of Dayton) is associate professor of theology at Wheaton College. She is the author of Quivering Families and Christmas, and coeditor of God and Wonder. Her articles have appeared in Christianity Today and The Week. She is a priest in the Anglican diocese of Churches for the Sake of Others. She and her husband, Ron, also a priest, live in Chicagoland with their three children.

Emily's Book:
Households of Faith

Emily's Recommendation:
Womanist Midrash

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