David is an old friend, a long-time writer at The Atlantic, and a contributor to MSNBC. He’s the author of 10 books, including Trumpocalypse and Trumpocracy.

For two clips of our convo — on the way Biden has empowered Trump, and the outlook that won the Cold War — pop over to our YouTube page. Other topics: Frum writing a memoir on being a Cold War baby; raised in Toronto — a city “filled with exiles and refugees” from both sides of that conflict; torture under Pinochet; how global security made Frum a conservative; the Nazis; the distinction between authoritarians and totalitarians; the Stasi in East Germany; the Netflix docu-series on the Cold War; the hubris of the West; the US condoning the coup against Allende; Khrushchev wanting to “bury” the West; JFK scared by Soviet growth; the Cuban Missile Crisis; the genius of Reagan and Thatcher to let the USSR implode; Gorbachev; the US neutralizing the nuclear stockpile after 1989; luring Russian scientists; the enduring influence of the KGB on Putin; the invasion of Crimea; Russia’s historic claims on Ukraine; Putin’s drive to revive an empire; today’s hot war with a nuclear power; the likely fate of Ukraine; how the EU is economically depressed; the migrant crisis there; Merkel’s role; Brexit; China lifting millions from poverty and fueling global trade; today’s cold war with China; the Birther slur; Trump’s wall; threats of mass deportation; asylum seekers vs. illegal immigrants; Biden’s recent executive order; how both Frum and I are immigrants; how the Trump show is boring after a decade; Clinton’s “I’m With Her” vs. Harris dulling identity politics; today problems vs. tomorrow problems; Washington leaving the presidency; Trump’s deranged psyche; and the death of Frum’s daughter Miranda.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Musa al-Gharbi on wokeness, Walter Kirn on Republican voters, Bill Wasik and Monica Murphy on animal welfare, Anderson Cooper on grief, John Gray on, well, everything, and Sam Harris for our quadrennial chat before Election Day. After the election we have Peggy Noonan on America, Christine Rosen on humanness in a digital world, and Mary Matalin on anything but politics. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

Michelle is an opinion columnist at the New York Times, and before that she was a columnist for Slate. She has written three books: Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism, The Means of Reproduction, and The Goddess Pose. She’s also an on-air contributor at MSNBC.

For two clips of our convo — debating who the real Kamala is, and how much BLM is responsible for lost black lives — pop over to our YouTube page. Other topics: growing up in Buffalo with conservative parents; her dad a journalist and mom a math teacher; Michelle a teen activist in the “Buffalo abortion wars”; the legality but ugliness of clinic protests; a pro-life man knocking the wind out of her; ACT UP; going to J-school; reporting at mega-churches in Ohio in the 2004 election; Harris’ moderate Smart on Crime book in 2009; her “triangulating” in 2019 (e.g. fracking); her busing moment with Biden; supporting a bail fund in summer 2020; Biden’s bait-and-switch as a centrist; bipartisan support for Israel; Merrick Garland’s effort to appear apolitical; lawfare; from Bush’s “f**k yeah” patriotism to Trump’s dark view of America; the Iraq War and 2008 bailout causing mistrust toward institutions; crumbling infrastructure; Trump never being a majority candidate; the cultural grievance fueling him; Michelle going to Trump rallies; the 1619 Project; debating the US as a “white supremacy”; the left radicalizing after Trump replaced a two-term black president; Covid mania; the distortion of Twitter; the Electoral College and its roots; the violent crime spike in 2020 and after; how the disadvantaged always bear the brunt of disorder; the greed of BLM Inc; the press distortion of unarmed black men killed by police; Michelle’s 2014 piece “What Is a Woman?”; Rachel Levine; puberty blockers; the Dutch protocol; the Cass Review; bathroom bills; and the GLAAD protest against the NYT.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: David Frum on Trump, Musa al-Gharbi on wokeness, Walter Kirn on Republican voters, Bill Wasik and Monica Murphy on animal welfare, Mary Matalin on life, Anderson Cooper on grief, John Gray on, well, everything, and Sam Harris for our quadrennial chat before Election Day. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

Rod is an old-school blogger and author living in Budapest. He’s a contributing editor at The American Conservative and has written several bestsellers, including The Benedict Option and Live Not by Lies. His forthcoming book is Living in Wonder: Finding Mystery and Meaning in a Secular Age, which you can pre-order on Amazon. And check out his raw and honest writing on Substack, “Rod Dreher’s Diary.”

For two clips of our convo — on what red-pilled JD Vance, and embracing the mystery of Christianity — pop over to our YouTube page. Other topics: Rod moving to Hungary; his begrudging vote for Trump this fall; his vote for a crook against David Duke; Harris baiting, and beating, Trump in the debate; her evasion on immigration; not disavowing her extreme views from 2020; her response on Israel; the cat-eating thing; how Trump makes wokeness worse; Vance as the future of the right; his tolerance of January 6; him signing on to Trump’s abortion pivot; the Kavanaugh hearings; the canceling of Judge Kyle Duncan; politics destroying friendships; riots and speech crimes in the UK; Orbán and migrants; the war in Ukraine; racial violence on Elon’s X; rightwing anti-Semitism; Vance’s conversion to Catholicism; “childless cat ladies”; pronatalism; the sexual revolution; Ross Douthat; the loss of freedom in parenthood and its joys; Deneen’s Why Liberalism Failed; Houellebecq’s Submission; Zygmunt Bauman and liquid modernity; environmental destruction; Trump’s grudge against windmills; Germany nixing nuclear power; the Iraq War; Trump vs. the neocons; his phone call to rig the vote-tally in Georgia; lawfare; the Hunter laptop story; Iain McGilchrist and the cultural crisis of the West; Pascal; religious faith arising in a crisis; conversion stories; Kierkegaard; transcendentalism; Rod attending an exorcism; demons and miracles; psychedelics as a window to the divine; Rod’s LSD trip in college; my MDMA trip in Miami; the lack of silence in modern life; and an update on my Ozempic summer.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Michelle Goldberg on Harris, David Frum on Trump, Bill Wasik and Monica Murphy on the history of animal cruelty, Mary Matalin on life, Anderson Cooper on loss and grief, John Gray on, well, everything, and Sam Harris for our quadrennial chat before Election Day. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.