Dawn Walton, a human therapist, and Jess Probst, a dog behaviourist are taking a trip to Costco and decide to do a podcast to record their conversation as they drive (Dawn is driving while Jess holds the microphone. All safe!)

Along with the normal meandering conversation, this episode includes a discussion of the difference between Tonic Immobility (as experienced by sharks and chickens when they are upside down, possums and fainting goats, among others) and the Shutdown state. As with everything, the conversation involves exploring how this applies to dogs, and how we can see this in autistic humans. They discuss what we can actually do to help a dog or person in a shutdown state, particularly by activating the parasympathetic nervous system.

They also discuss the favourite topic of labels. Particularly how important it is to treat every individual (dog or human!) based on what you see in front of you. Decision trees can be used to ask the right questions and eliminate things that aren't relevant. So instead of A =B you can instead ask a series of yes or no questions to narrow things down. This can avoid falling into the trap of making assumptions, and of thinking that what you are doing is automatically right just because that is what you were taught.