In the final episode of the Torn Apart podcast, Dorothy Roberts makes the case for the abolition of the child welfare system and lays out a vision for the more just and equitable society that could replace it. Roberts discusses why abolition, and not reform, is the necessary path forward. In conversation with Professor Anna Arons of St. John’s University, Roberts uses how New York City is a case study for what could happen if family policing ends. During the pandemic, New York City limited its child protection agency. This resulted in an over 40% decrease in the number of children sent into foster care, and data found that rates of child abuse did not rise. Abolition of the child welfare system will help us build a safer world.

Meet Dorothy Roberts

Dorothy Roberts is a distinguished professor at the University of Pennsylvania and Founding Director of its Program on Race, Science & Society. An internationally acclaimed scholar, public intellectual, and social justice activist, she is an elected member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, American Philosophical Society, and National Academy of Medicine. She is the author of the award-winning Killing the Black Body: Race, Reproduction, and the Meaning of Liberty ; Shattered Bonds: The Color of Child Welfare; and Fatal Invention: How Science, Politics, and Big Business Re-create Race in the Twenty-First Century , as well as more than 100 articles and book chapters, including “Race” in the 1619 Project. Her latest book, Torn Apart: How the Child Welfare System Destroys Black Families—And How Abolition Can Build a Safer World , culminates more than two decades of investigating family policing, calling for a radically reimagined way to support children and families.

With Guests

- Joyce McMillan is the founder and Executive Director of Just Making A Change For Families, an organization in New York City that works to abolish the child welfare system and to strengthen the systems of supports that keep families and communities together. Joyce’s mission is to remove systemic barriers in communities of color by bringing awareness to the racial disparities in systems where people of color are disproportionately affected. Her ultimate goal is to abolish systems of harm–especially the family policing system (or the so-called “child welfare system”)–while creating concrete community resources. Joyce leads a statewide coalition of impacted parents and young people, advocates, attorneys, social workers, and academics collaborating to effect systemic change in the family policing system. Joyce also currently serves on the board of the Women’s Prison Association.

- Anna Arons is an Assistant Professor of Law at St. John’s University. She teaches evidence, criminal law, and courses related to family law. Arons writes about the government's regulation and policing of families and the intersection of parental rights and identity along dimensions including race, poverty, and gender. Her scholarship has appeared in publications including the Washington University Law Review, the N.Y.U. Review of Law and Social Change, and the Columbia Journal of Race and Law and has been cited in publications including MSNBC, the New York Times, Pro Publica, USA Today, and the Washington Post.