In this final bonus Walled Culture podcast episode - recorded mid-2022 and kept under wraps as a special 1st anniversary episode, we welcome Fred von Lohmann, former Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and Google copyright counsel. Our conversation starts with recalling how he got intrigued by copyright, crediting John Perry Barlow, and explaining how he was at the right juncture to become a tech enthusiast.

Fred talks about his role at EFF during what was a unique time from a copyright perspective, characterised by pivotal court cases in the 2000s. He looks back at the impact and effects of the rights holders’ battle against peer-to-peer (P2P) technology. Their fierce resistance against anything related to P2P, in his view, crippled the potential transition towards a decentralised Internet back then. He did see one silver lining from the aftermath: the P2P revolution opened music fans’ eyes to what could be, pressuring the music industry to start meeting consumers’ demand.

Fred highlights the Digital Millennium Copyright Act’s (DMCA) (invisible) role in shaping our daily lives. On the one hand, the DMCA gave a legal justification to rights holders’ control over technology beyond the copyright realm by providing legal protections for Digital Rights Management (DRM). This has impacted various types of content, be it (now old-school) DVDs, eBooks or games. On the other, the DMCA boosted the Internet’s success through the safe harbour regime, offering a shelter from the ‘open sea’ with hurricanes of lawsuits.

The latter troubled rights holders, leading Fred to discuss the emergence of (imperfect) copyright filters. In this context, he touches upon Google’s Content ID, rights holder abuses, and the EU Copyright Directive’s questionable filtering obligations. He puts forward a crucial, yet unanswered, question in this debate: “how do you build filters that are fair to users and also don't constrict creativity too much?”

Finally, Fred briefly shares his insights on how copyright intersects with competition and innovation, especially in the context of software interfaces. In his closing remarks, he echoes some of Cory Doctorow’s wisdom, as he emphasises the need to think about copyright’s impact on fans and innovators.

📌Time Stamp

⏲️[00:00] Intro

⏲️[01:42] The conversion moment: a Stanford Law student triggered by John Perry Barlow

⏲️[05:09] A tech enthusiast: the ARPANET days and tech exposure in the San Francisco Bay area

⏲️[10:16] A unique period from a copyright perspective: joining the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF)

⏲️[14:46] Pivotal court cases in the 2000s: from MGM v. Grokster to JibJab’s ‘This Land is Your Land’ parody

⏲️[22:34] The knock-on effects of rights holders’ P2P battle: a missed opportunity for a decentralised Internet

⏲️[29:00] No iTunes without Napster: the music industry’s path to meeting consumers’ demand

⏲️[31:06] The Internet’s ‘invisible’ part shaping our reality: the Digital Millennium Copyright Act’s (DMCA) safe harbour vs. the ‘open sea’ with hurricanes of lawsuits

⏲️[34:28] The DMCA & Digital Rights Management (DRM): a legal justification to rights holders’ control over technology beyond the copyright realm

⏲️[37:00] DRM: rights holders dictating the rules, from (now old-school) DVDs to eBooks and games

⏲️[44:11] The DMCA’s safe harbour: boosting the Internet’s success, while troubling rights holders

⏲️[47:25] (Imperfect) copyright filters: from Google’s Content ID, rights holder abuses, to the EU Copyright Directive’s questionable filtering obligations

⏲️[53:12] Filters vs. the remix culture: allow people to engage with culture for the benefit of rights holders

⏲️[57:20] Software interfaces: copyright raising important questions for competition and innovation

⏲️[01:03:11] Echoing Cory Doctorow’s wisdom: think about copyright’s impact on fans and innovators

⏲️[01:04:26] Wrap-up

📌Guest of this Episode

🎙️Fred von Lohmann

former Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and Google copyright counsel

🌐 https://www.linkedin.com/in/fred-von-lohmann-06b2

𝕏 https://x.com/flohmann

Glyn Moody has been writing about copyright, digital rights, and the Internet for 30 years. He is the editor of the Walled Culture project and author of Walled Culture - the Book (freely available as ebook). He previously wrote ‘Rebel Code: Linux and the Open Source Revolution’. He explains how the Walled Culture project is a reflection on digital copyright going wrong, and how copyright and the Internet have shown to be fundamentally incompatible. Glyn highlights how there’s no escaping copyright in an online world. He shares some copyright absurdities, with big content fighting the visually impaired and initiatives like Project Gutenberg and Google Books. He talks about how Big Content put on shackles on libraries thanks to Digital Rights Management (DRM), and reflects on the injustice of the Big Publishers’ suing the Internet Archive. Glyn points out how Big Academic Publishers hijacked the shift towards open access to benefit their bottom line, while pointing out that diamond open access shows that we can move away from the academic publishing business. He recalls how Big Record Labels went on a rampage, suing grandmothers and children, neglecting the opportunity to give consumers what they wanted. Glyn describes Big Content’s push for copyright enforcement, from the French three strikes mechanism to the SOPA and ACTA battles, while emphasising how copyright laws got skewed towards Big Content. He talks about the failures surrounding the EU Copyright Directive and the looming dangers of upload filters. He further highlights how copyright no longer promotes culture but harms it, and how it’s about protecting Big Content, not creators. Glyn concludes by reflecting on a possible way forward: building on creators’ true fans.

📌Time Stamp ⏲️[00:00] Intro ⏲️[01:05] Walled Culture: Digital copyright going wrong ⏲️[03:51] Copyright vs. the Internet: Fundamentally incompatible ⏲️[06:44] Who gives a toss about copyright: In an online world you should ⏲️[08:27] Copyright absurdities - Part 1: Big Content vs the visually impaired ⏲️[10:26] Copyright absurdities - Part 2: Big Content vs Project Gutenberg & Google Books ⏲️[13:31] Digital Rights Management (DRM): Big content putting the shackles on libraries ⏲️[15:33] Big Publishers suing the Internet Archive ⏲️[17:58] Big Academic Publishers & open access: One step forward, two steps back ⏲️[21:55] Diamond open access: Moving away from the academic publishing business ⏲️[24:55] Preprints: More eyeballs scrutinising academic research ⏲️[26:40] Big Record Labels on a rampage: Suing grandmothers & children ⏲️[30:52] People pay: If you offer them what they want on fair terms ⏲️[34:24] Big Content’s push for Copyright enforcement: From three strikes to SOPA and ACTA ⏲️[39:06] The impact of copyright on our digital lives ⏲️[40:05] Copyright laws: Skewed towards Big Content ⏲️[44:17] The EU Copyright Directive: How not to bring copyright into the digital age ⏲️[45:12] The EU Copyright Directive: No freedom of panorama ⏲️[46:58] The EU Copyright Directive upload filters: It’s going to be bad ⏲️[52:00] Stopping preservation: Copyright no longer promotes culture but harms it ⏲️[55:35] Busting copyright’s creator myth: It’s about protecting Big Content ⏲️[57:51] The power of true fans

📌Guest of this Episode 🎙️ Glyn Moody Editor of the Walled Culture project and author of Walled Culture - the Book 🌐 Book: https://walledculture.org/the-book/ 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/glynmoody 🌐 Diaspora: https://joindiaspora.com/people/4cfe755c2c1743364f000890 🌐 Mastodon: https://mastodon.social/@glynmoody

Mike Masnick explores the intersection of technology, innovation, policy, law, civil liberties, and economics, being the founder & editor of the popular Techdirt blog, as well as the founder of the Silicon Valley think tank, the Copia Institute.

He notably talks about Techdirt’s creation, how copyright puts up barriers to information flows and hinders economic growth, the concepts of abundance and scarcity in a digital world, and how copyright’s original intent got lost to the detriment of the public domain. Mike looks at how opportunities for new business models arose that helped create a ‘flywheel of support’ for creators, whilst observing that copyright made creators vulnerable to exploitation by big content. He looks back at the impact the SOPA/PIPA fight made, and the powerful Internet blackout linked to the protests against these Bills. Mike explains his thinking behind the ‘Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech’ essay he wrote for the Knight First Amendment Institute. He also briefly talks about the EU’s new digital rulebook. Finally, he reflects on the idea that the NFT space, once the hype, nonsense and craziness have moved away, could help stimulate the thinking about how to actually support artists in creative and clever ways that make sense for everybody and that align the incentives much better.

📌Time Stamp ⏲️[00:00] Intro ⏲️[01:47] Techdirt’s creation: copyright putting up barriers to information flows ⏲️[05:07] From Thomas Jefferson’s thinking to copyright hindering economic growth ⏲️[11:10] Copyright’s original intent got lost to the detriment of the public domain ⏲️[15:47] Abundance and scarcity in a digital world ⏲️[19:55] Creating a ‘flywheel of support’ for creators: opportunities for new business models ⏲️[24:14] Copyright made creators vulnerable to exploitation by big content ⏲️[26:54] The SOPA/PIPA battle put the breaks on the ‘clockwork-like expansion’ of copyright law ⏲️[32:33] How activism drove the Internet blackout in protest of SOPA/PIPA ⏲️[37:02] The SOPA fight put the breaks on term extensions ⏲️[40:55] The thinking behind the ‘Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech’ essay ⏲️[49:27] The EU’s new digital rulebook: portability vs interoperability ⏲️[52:30] Reflecting on the NFT space’s potential value for creators

📌Guest of this Episode 🎙️Mike Masnick Founder & Editor of Techdirt (https://www.techdirt.com) 🌐 https://www.techdirt.com/user/mmasnick | https://www.linkedin.com/in/mmasnick 🐦 https://twitter.com/mmasnick | https://twitter.com/techdirt 🌐 Check Mike's essay “Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech” : https://knightcolumbia.org/content/protocols-not-platforms-a-technological-approach-to-free-speech