For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/

What if you dedicated decades of your life to ministry only to discover the role you've been striving to fulfill doesn't align with your true calling?

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt sits down with David Robinson, a seasoned pastor who faced the painful realization that his gifting was not what people had expected of him.

Together, they tackle the disappointment of unfulfilled expectations in ministry, the challenges pastors face when their role doesn’t fit their calling, and the key to finding clarity and purpose in leadership.

How can churches avoid burnout, embrace better hiring processes, and ensure that their pastors are operating within their true gifts?

This episode dives deep into what it takes to build effective ministry teams and how to lead a church while avoiding common pitfalls.

1. Clarity Prevents Confrontation: Many conflicts arise from unclear expectations in leadership roles; upfront clarity in job descriptions and performance agreements is essential.
2. Gifting vs. Role Expectations: Churches often expect pastors to fulfill multiple roles, but each leader needs to operate within their God-given spiritual gift.
3. The Importance of Building a Team: An apostolic leader must focus on building a balanced team of other gifts - shepherds, teachers, evangelists, and prophets - instead of trying to do it all themselves.
4. Relational Equity Matters: The strength of a church’s leadership is often determined by the relationships built outside formal meetings - trust grows from investing in personal connections.
5. Burnout Doesn't Come From Chasing Jesus: Burnout in ministry occurs when leaders chase after people or tasks outside of their gifts, not from pursuing their true calling.

1. "Confrontation is the flip side of clarity. If you're not clear upfront, confrontation is inevitable."
2. "God told me, 'I never called you to be a pastor.' It wasn't the shepherding gift He gave me, but another that was needed in the places He sent me."
3. "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus; it comes from chasing people and tasks that don't align with your gift."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce David Robinson and the theme of unfulfilled expectations in ministry.
• [00:41] Unfulfilled Expectations in Leadership – David explains how lack of clarity in roles leads to disappointment and confrontation.
• [02:00] Five Key Areas of Clarity in Hiring – Spiritual gifting, temperament, clear job description, and performance agreements are necessary for successful leadership.
• [04:32] Frustration in Ministry – David shares his 40-year experience in ministry and the internal struggle of being called a "pastor" without having a shepherding gift.
• [07:50] The Role of Apostolic Leadership – A discussion on the difference between an apostolic gifting and the expectations placed on pastors.
• [12:44] Elders’ Role in Supporting Leadership – How elders hold pastors accountable and build trust through relational equity.
• [15:12] Tension Between Ministry and Corporate Approaches – Addressing the disconnect between ministry-focused staff and marketplace-minded elders.
• [18:08] Managing Transitions and Letting Go – How to approach pastoral transitions with grace and maintain emotional maturity during difficult conversations.
• [19:49] Vision vs. Management in Ministry – The importance of maintaining a compelling vision to prevent ministry from devolving into mere management.
• [21:59] Addressing Burnout in Ministry – How burnout happens when leaders pursue tasks outside their gifting and how to create balance.
• [26:27] Life After Ministry – David discusses the possibility of life after vocational ministry and how to embrace a new calling outside the church.

Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/

Learn more about the great work Kathey Batey is doing at Divorce Support Anonymous by going to: https://divorcesupportanonymous.com/

Episode Summary

Imagine walking into your church with a heart heavy from a broken marriage, unsure how your faith community will respond. The weight of shame, guilt, and fear can feel unbearable.

This episode of Life After Ministry dives into the often unspoken struggles of divorce, especially for those in ministry.

Divorce doesn't just impact a marriage, it shakes personal faith, family, and even one’s calling.

Matt and Marilee Davis sit down with Kathy Batey, a divorce support expert, to explore the stigma of divorce in Christian circles, the unique pain pastors face when marriages fall apart, and how the church can better respond with love and grace instead of judgment.

This episode sheds light on the real experiences of people struggling with the collapse of their marriage and how to heal and hope again.

1. The Church’s Response to Divorce: Instead of casting stones, churches need to approach divorce with compassion, understanding that healing requires support, not judgment.
2. The Unique Pressure on Pastors: Pastors face additional layers of shame and complexity when dealing with divorce because of their public role in the faith community.
3. God Hates Violence, Not Just Divorce: The often-quoted scripture about God hating divorce is often misapplied, as the heart of the issue is God's disdain for violence and broken relationships, not merely the legal separation.
4. Hope After Divorce: Even after the pain of divorce, there is life, restoration, and potential for new purpose if individuals are intentional about healing.
5. The Importance of Support Systems: Support groups, whether faith-based or community-oriented, are critical for healing and processing the trauma of divorce.

1. "Divorce causes damage, but God cares more about the individual than the institution of marriage."
2. "You have a broken soul in front of you. How you treat this broken soul matters."
3. "God has not divorced you. He still has a beautiful plan for your life."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce the topic of divorce in ministry.
• [01:05] Kathy Batey’s Journey – Kathy shares her personal experience with divorce and how it led her to support others.
• [02:56] The Stigma of Divorce in the Church – Exploring the shame and fear Christians feel around divorce.
• [05:01] Pastors and Divorce – The additional challenges pastors face when their marriages break down.
• [06:36] Misinterpretations of Malachi 2:16 – Kathy explains how the Bible's verse about God hating divorce is often misused.
• [10:28] Helping Pastors Struggling in Their Marriage – Kathy offers advice for ministry leaders facing marital challenges.
• [14:50] Church Leaders’ Role in Supporting Divorcing Pastors – Practical steps church boards can take to support pastors going through divorce.
• [18:35] Redemption After Divorce – A story of how one pastor was more impactful post-divorce.
• [20:37] Life After Divorce – The importance of healing and finding hope after a marriage ends.
• [25:50] Final Thoughts – Kathy encourages individuals going through divorce, reminding them of God's plan for their lives.

Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Learn more about the great work Kathey Batey is doing at Divorce Support Anonymous by going to: https://divorcesupportanonymous.com/

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Chris Adams, Executive Director of Flourishing in Ministry, takes us deep into the heart of one of the biggest challenges pastors face today—burnout. With pastors feeling pulled in every direction, post-pandemic pressures, political polarization, and toxic church dynamics, how can they stay healthy and truly flourish? Chris shares his own background as a third-generation pastor and how he was inspired to care for those serving in ministry, especially after witnessing his grandfather's ministry burnout. Together, we unpack the emotional weight pastors carry and how Chris's work is helping pastors find real, tangible ways to prevent burnout, restore balance, and thrive, even when their ministries are struggling.

1. "You can be so right, you're wrong. There’s a lot of that happening today."

2. "Burnout sneaks up on pastors. By the time they realize it, the damage is done."

3. "Pastors need to play. A little bit of fun, even 20-30 minutes a week, can make a huge difference."

• Burnout sneaks up: Most pastors are unaware they’re burning out until it reaches a critical level. Early warning signs must be recognized.

• Self-regulation is essential: Pastors are constantly exposed to toxic behavior and emotional stress. They need skills to process and release those burdens.

• Playtime is necessary: Even a small amount of leisure time can rejuvenate mental and physical health and contribute to long-term well-being.

• Daily rhythms matter: Pastors should practice simple daily wellness routines, like a 5-minute pause or a 15-minute walk, to maintain resilience.

• Flourishing despite hardship: A pastor’s ministry doesn’t need to be thriving for them to personally flourish; redefining success can lead to true fulfillment.

00:00 - Introduction and Chris's Ministry Background 02:30 - The "Clergy-Killing" Churches and Why Chris Stayed in Ministry 04:50 - The Current Health of Clergy in America 07:15 - Navigating Polarization and Flourishing Amidst Conflict 10:00 - The Daily Well-being of Pastors 12:30 - Importance of Contemplative Practices and Play 16:30 - Flourishing in Ministry Even When Ministry Isn’t Flourishing 19:40 - The Research Behind Burnout in Ministry 22:30 - Indicators of When to Consider Stepping Away from Ministry 26:20 - How Flourishing in Ministry is Helping Pastors

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

In Episode 34 of Life After Ministry, Dennis Allen, author of The Disciple Dilemma, shares his journey from a military and corporate background to addressing one of the most significant crises in the church today: the failure of discipleship. Dennis discusses how the church has shifted from making disciples to prioritizing institutional success, leading to widespread disengagement, de-churching, and a broken model of ministry. Drawing on his leadership experience, Dennis explains how churches can refocus on their true mission—making disciples who make disciples.

This episode is crucial for ministry leaders, decision-makers, and anyone grappling with the challenges of church leadership in today’s complex landscape. Dennis offers deep insights into how discipleship can transform churches, reduce pastor burnout, and create lasting impact in the lives of congregations. His message is a wake-up call to rethink the church's mission and rediscover the biblical model of discipleship.

Join us as we dive into practical solutions for reviving discipleship in the church and hear Dennis' heartfelt encouragement to pastors who have transitioned out of ministry, reminding them that their identity is not lost—there is still hope and purpose beyond the pulpit.

Takeaways

• The modern church has shifted from making disciples to focusing on institutional growth, leading to disengagement and the rise of the "de-churched."

• True discipleship is a life-on-life process, not something that can be achieved through programs or one-size-fits-all approaches.

• Pastors are often burdened with unrealistic expectations, leading to burnout and a broken leadership model in many churches.

• Churches need to rediscover their biblical mission: making disciples who make disciples, which starts with leadership modeling the way.

• Even after leaving vocational ministry, pastors can still fulfill their purpose by walking alongside others in discipleship, finding renewed hope and identity.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Welcome

00:20 - Dennis Allen’s Journey from Military and Corporate to Ministry

02:21 - Early Mentorship and the Biblical Model of Discipleship

04:30 - The Symptoms of the Discipleship Crisis in the Church

05:01 - The Rise of the "Nones," "Dones," and the De-Churched

07:24 - The Impact of COVID on Church Engagement

08:59 - Institutional Problems in the Church and the Burden on Pastors

11:52 - The Biblical Discipleship Model: Bet Sefer, Bet Midrash, Bet Talmud

14:09 - Implementing Real Discipleship in the Modern Church

17:03 - The Burden of the "Sunday Show" and Outsourcing Spiritual Responsibility

18:32 - Similarities Between Broken Churches and Broken Corporations

20:51 - Reclaiming the Church’s True Mission and Identity

23:03 - The Challenge of Discipleship in a Culture of Instant Gratification

24:45 - Overview of The Disciple Dilemma and Its Goals

26:04 - Encouragement for Pastors Transitioning Out of Ministry

27:30 - Closing Remarks and How to Connect with Dennis Allen

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

What do you do when God asks you to let go of the dream you’ve built your life around? Wade Joye, former worship leader at Elevation Church, shares his personal story of facing that very question. We talk about the book he wrote: This Dream Is Not For You. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Wade opens up about the moment Pastor Steven Furtick asked him to consider if he was willing to release what he was good at to embrace what God was calling him to be great at. Wade wrestled with letting go of his role as a worship leader—a dream he thought would last a lifetime—but in surrendering it, he discovered a deeper purpose.

This episode speaks directly to those in ministry transition and the decision-makers tasked with helping others move forward. We explore the often painful process of releasing control and trusting God with an unknown future. Wade’s story is an encouragement to anyone navigating the loss of a role, identity, or dream, helping you recognize that God may be writing a greater story, even when the one you’re living seems to be falling apart.

In this raw and honest conversation, Wade shares how embracing new dreams led him to a more fulfilling and joyful life, despite the fear and uncertainty along the way. From his pivotal conversation with Pastor Furtick to finding his calling beyond vocational ministry, Wade emphasizes that true peace and fulfillment often only come after we release our grip on our own plans and trust God with our whole lives. This episode is a must-listen for anyone facing ministry transitions, looking for hope and guidance as they step into the unknown.

Takeaways

• Letting go of our own dreams can open the door to God's greater plans for us.

• Ministry transitions, while painful, are often part of God's way of refining us and leading us into a new season of purpose.

• Trusting the guidance of leaders and God's timing can help us navigate through uncertainty and discover new callings.

• Our identity should not be defined by what we do (such as a job or ministry role), but by who we are in Christ.

• Calling is more about who we are becoming in Jesus than about a specific role or career path.

• Leadership transitions create opportunities for others to step into their God-given roles, making room for new growth in the church or organization.

• True peace and fulfillment often come only after we release our grip on our own plans and trust God with our entire lives.

• Developing a healthy inner world, focusing on our spiritual and emotional health, is essential for effective leadership and finding joy in new assignments.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Welcome

00:38 - Wade’s Journey and the Story Behind the Book

04:15 - The Turning Point: Pastor Steven Furtick’s Challenge

06:10 - Wrestling with the Dream and Trusting Leadership

08:05 - Transitioning into New Roles and Calling

12:13 - Redefining Calling: Identity vs. Assignment

14:03 - Stepping Away from Elevation Church

17:31 - Finding Joy in Letting Go and Creating Space for Others

20:42 - True Peace and Fulfillment After Letting Go

25:13 - Wade’s Ministry Today: Coaching and The Joyful Leader Program

29:04 - Final Thoughts and Encouragement

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

What happens when pastors hang on too long or find themselves suddenly cut off from ministry?

In part two of our conversation with Gene Getz on Life After Ministry, we tackle this crucial issue head-on. With over 50 years in ministry and 20 years post-succession, Gene offers practical wisdom on how to prepare for life after ministry, including avoiding bitterness, maintaining humility, and finding a new calling.

He shares how his own transition didn’t end his impact - in fact, it led to creating the world’s first multimedia study Bible.

For those wrestling with disappointment, Gene’s advice is clear: Don’t let anger turn to bitterness, and be ready to serve God in new ways, even when the path forward feels uncertain.

This episode is a must-listen for any pastor navigating the complexities of ministry transitions. Whether you’re nearing retirement or facing an unexpected exit, Gene’s wisdom and experience can guide you through the emotional, spiritual, and practical challenges of stepping away from the pulpit.

His message offers hope: there is a way to transition well, with grace and a lasting impact.

Takeaways

• Ministry transitions can be challenging and require wisdom, humility, and proactive thinking.
• Succession planning should involve the development of a team of supportive individuals who can provide guidance and accountability.
• Pastors who are transitioning out of ministry should consider developing a second ministry career or finding ways to fill the void left by their previous role.
• Dealing with disappointment and anger is important for pastors who have left ministry, and seeking help and forgiveness can aid in the healing process.
• Having a godly and supportive board is crucial for pastors, and addressing board dynamics is essential for a healthy ministry.
• Support and resources are needed for pastors who are transitioning out of ministry to navigate the challenges and uncertainties of their next season.

Chapters

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

What happens when a pastor knows it’s time to pass the baton?

How do you handle transitions with grace, humility, and purpose?

As we kick off this episode and a new season of Life After Ministry, we dive deep into these questions with none other than Gene Getz - a man who pastored for decades and transitioned out in a way that continues to inspire. Gene, now 92, shares his incredible journey of ministry, church planting, and leadership, revealing how he successfully handed over his thriving megachurch to the next generation.

His story is one of humility, foresight, and the importance of building a strong team, emphasizing that true leadership is knowing when and how to let go.

This conversation is a masterclass in succession planning and next steps - offering insights not just for pastors but for anyone leading an organization. Gene’s wisdom shines as he discusses the importance of surrounding yourself with godly people, recognizing when someone else is ready to lead, and the challenges of balancing ego with responsibility.

Whether you’re a pastor facing transition or simply curious about the behind-the-scenes struggles of leadership, this episode offers hope that there is indeed life after ministry, and ministry after ministry.

Takeaways

• Ministry can involve layered and textured conversations that leave a lasting impact.
• Life After Ministry aims to provide hope and encouragement to those transitioning out of ministry or facing tough seasons.
• Gene Getz's journey into ministry was shaped by his upbringing, his experience at Moody Bible Institute, and the influence of a supportive professor.
• Getz's approach to ministry involved team leadership and building a support system of godly men and their wives.
• Succession planning and passing the baton in ministry require humility, open communication, and a focus on the future of the organization.

Chapters

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

Summary

In this episode, Matt and Marilee Davis discuss eight things that ministry leaders need in their transition out of ministry. These include consistent community support, affirmation of personal integrity and worth, financial guidance and support, spousal and family support, professional development and coaching opportunities, legal and administrative support, access to solid Christian therapy, and spiritual direction and guidance. They emphasize the importance of these resources in navigating the challenges and growth opportunities that come with transitioning out of ministry.

Takeaways

• Consistent community support is crucial for ministry leaders transitioning out of ministry, as it can be disorienting and lonely.

• Affirmation of personal integrity and worth is important, especially for men in ministry who often struggle with their identity tied to their job.

• Financial guidance and support are necessary, as pastors often don't qualify for unemployment and may not have significant savings.

• Spousal and family support and engagement are essential, as the transition affects the entire family and can lead to instability.

• Professional development and coaching opportunities help ministry leaders transition into new industries and utilize their skills in different contexts.

• Legal and administrative support is needed to navigate contractual and legal matters, especially when NDAs are involved.

• Access to solid Christian therapy is beneficial for emotional and spiritual health during the transition.

• Spiritual direction and guidance help ministry leaders discern God's leading and navigate the next season of life.

Chapters

00:00 - Eight Things Ministry Leaders Need

08:30 - Financial Guidance and Support

13:14 - Spousal and Family Support

16:34 - Professional Development and Coaching

21:44 - Christian Therapy

25:04 - Spiritual Direction and Guidance