In this episode, Amri B. Johnson, host of the Reconstructing Inclusion Podcast, revisits ten insightful questions from his past podcast appearances, offering a comprehensive look at his approach to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI).

Timestamps

01:55 Amri's background and journey into DEI work

07:00 Relationship between DEI and anti-racism

10:00 Approach to deconstructing and reconstructing the DEI paradigm

15:00 Dealing with resistance to DEI initiatives

17:00 Optimism about the future of DEI efforts

20:00 Defining diversity and inclusion

22:00 Approaching DEI interventions

23:30 Applying 'systems thinking' to DEI

26:30 Perspective on meritocracy in relation to DEI

29:40 Impact of AI on DEI

Highlights

- Amri's early influences, including his father's experience with desegregation in Topeka, Kansas

- The importance of creating conditions for sustainable representation in organizations

- Fostering dialogue and learning instead of "canceling" those who resist DEI initiatives

- The need for DEI to be integrated into all aspects of organizational design

- Challenging the notion of meritocracy while recognizing the importance of merit

- The potential of AI to enhance DEI efforts when used thoughtfully

Resources

Amri Johnson’s Podcast Guesting Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3TP80hBhFdXAkBQSjj7Ir8?si=7cb7742de6514a65

About the Host

As CEO/Founder of Inclusion Wins, Amri B. Johnson and a virtual collective of partners converge organizational purpose to create global impact with a lens of inclusion.

His theory of change is focused on building ‘Inclusion Systems.’ Inclusion systems provide direction and momentum in the complexity of organizations that allow them to be antifragile—leaning into and engaging with resistance, stressors, disruptions, and disequilibrium and being stronger as a result of such engagement.

His book, Reconstructing Inclusion: Making DEI Accessible, Actionable, and Sustainable outlines how organizations can create inclusion-normative cultures and build approaches to DEI that are designed for and with everyone, unambiguously prioritized, and purpose aligned.

Born in Topeka, Kansas (USA), Amri has worked and lived in the U.S., Brazil, and currently lives in Basel, Switzerland, with his wife Martina and their three kids.

Reconstructing Inclusion is also on Substack. Subscribe and be part of the conversation!

Your support means a lot!

Like this episode? We'd greatly appreciate it if you could take a moment to write a review, even if it's just one sentence!

Grab a copy of Reconstructing Inclusion: Making DEI Accessible, Actionable, and Sustainable: https://amzn.to/45AYFFP

Sign up for the Reconstructing Inclusion newsletter on Substack: https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/

In this episode, host Amri Johnson welcomes Dr. Jonathan Ashong-Lamptey, founder of The Element of Inclusion, to discuss evidence-based inclusion and its importance in creating more effective diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) strategies.

Timestamps

06:46 Influences and Inspirations: Personal and Professional 16:12 The Importance of Evidence-Based Decision Making 19:33 The Rhetorical Problem in Diversity and Inclusion 22:12 Evidence-Based Inclusion and Emotional Appeals 22:36 Unconscious Bias Training: Effectiveness and Critiques 23:41 The Role of Credibility in DEI 24:50 Understanding Data vs. Evidence 25:34 Current State of DEI and Pushback 27:37 Challenges in DEI Implementation 40:56 Choosing the Right DEI Practitioner

Highlights

- Dr. Jonathan explains the concept of evidence-based inclusion and its four key areas: research, stakeholder input, organizational data, and professional expertise.

- Discussion on the limitations of unconscious bias training and the need for more rigorous approaches in DEI.

- Exploration of the "rhetorical problem" in DEI, emphasizing the need for logos (logic) and ethos (credibility) alongside pathos (emotion).

- Insights on how evidence-based inclusion can help mitigate negative perceptions of DEI practitioners.

- Advice for organizations on selecting qualified DEI consultants and implementing effective strategies.

About the Guest

Dr. Jonathan Ashong-Lamptey, the world-renowned authority on Evidence-Based Inclusion in the workplace, has helped global brands like Conde Nast, Sony and Meta. With a PhD from the London School of Economics, he combines academic rigour with practical insights to deliver impactful solutions. He is also the host of The Element of Inclusion, a popular podcast that informs and educates using applied research and thought leadership.

Dr. Jonathan's expertise has been featured in prestigious media outlets like the FT, Bloomberg and the BBC. He is on a mission to help a million people make their workplaces inclusive.

Connect with Dr. Jonathan Ashong-Lamptey:

Website: https://elementofinclusion.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjonathan/

Thank you for listening to the Reconstructing Inclusion Podcast. Make it a great day!

About the Host

As CEO/Founder of Inclusion Wins, Amri B. Johnson and a virtual collective of partners converge organizational purpose to create global impact with a lens of inclusion.

His theory of change is focused on building ‘Inclusion Systems.’ Inclusion systems provide direction and momentum in the complexity of organizations that allow them to be antifragile—leaning into and engaging with resistance, stressors, disruptions, and disequilibrium and being stronger as a result of such engagement.

His book, Reconstructing Inclusion: Making DEI Accessible, Actionable, and Sustainable outlines how organizations can create inclusion-normative cultures and build approaches to DEI that are designed for and with everyone, unambiguously prioritized, and purpose aligned.

Born in Topeka, Kansas (USA), Amri has worked and lived in the U.S., Brazil, and currently lives in Basel, Switzerland, with his wife Martina and their three kids.

Reconstructing Inclusion is also on Substack. Subscribe and be part of the conversation!

Your support means a lot!

Like this episode? We'd greatly appreciate it if you could take a moment to write a review, even if it's just one sentence!

Grab a copy of Reconstructing Inclusion: Making DEI Accessible, Actionable, and Sustainable: https://amzn.to/45AYFFP

Sign up for the Reconstructing Inclusion newsletter on Substack: https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/

Amri B. Johnson acknowledges the growing criticism of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) efforts, but argues that DEI remains crucial for organizational success in creating truly inclusive cultures. He believes many current strategies treat inclusion as an add-on rather than fundamentally rethinking systems and cultures, often failing to drive deep systemic change.

Season two of the Reconstructing Inclusion podcast aims to move beyond surface-level discussions by featuring contrarian voices to challenge assumptions and re-imagine what authentic inclusion could look like. Key topics will include embracing complexity, exploring cultural intelligence, leveraging data and social capital analysis, examining nuanced identity narratives beyond race and gender, and fostering genuine community across differences.

Amri invites listeners to join this journey of deconstructing DEI shortcomings, co-creating transformative human-centered approaches, and continually examining biases for lifelong learning - all in the pursuit of making DEI efforts more accessible, actionable, and sustainable within organizations.

About the Host

As CEO/Founder of Inclusion Wins, Amri B. Johnson and a virtual collective of partners converge organizational purpose to create global impact with a lens of inclusion.

His theory of change is focused on building ‘Inclusion Systems.’ Inclusion systems provide direction and momentum in the complexity of organizations that allow them to be antifragile—leaning into and engaging with resistance, stressors, disruptions, and disequilibrium and being stronger as a result of such engagement.

His book, Reconstructing Inclusion: Making DEI Accessible, Actionable, and Sustainable outlines how organizations can create inclusion-normative cultures and build approaches to DEI that are designed for and with everyone, unambiguously prioritized, and purpose-aligned.

Born in Topeka, Kansas (USA), Amri has worked and lived in the U.S., Brazil, and currently lives in Basel, Switzerland, with his wife Martina and their three kids.

Your support means a lot!

Like this episode? We'd greatly appreciate it if you could take a moment to write a review, even if it's just one sentence!

Grab a copy of Reconstructing Inclusion: Making DEI Accessible, Actionable, and Sustainable: https://amzn.to/45AYFFP

Sign up for the Reconstructing Inclusion newsletter on Substack: https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/

Connect with Amri on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amrijohnson/

Let's discuss where your inclusion policies are effective and how to overcome challenges by creating an Inclusion System. > https://inclusionwins.com/contact