In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Sheena Mason, author of "The Raceless Antiracist: Why Ending Race is the Future of Antiracism," for a conversation that challenged everything I thought I knew about racial justice. Sheena presents her revolutionary "Togetherness Wayfinder" framework—a practical roadmap beyond traditional antiracist thinking toward what she calls "raceless antiracism."

This isn't just academic theory. It's a fundamental reimagining of how we approach inclusion, justice, and human liberation that could transform organizations, communities, and individual relationships.

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"The fiction of race is the dehumanizing apparatus that gets attached to human beings that then allows us to be broken into false hierarchies. And in that way, it's a thoroughly pernicious category and a thoroughly pernicious practice." [00:13:00]

"In that shift, the idea is I'm centering the human right. I'm recentering the human. A person, right? A human who gets racialized as... I'm highlighting the external factors that exists in a particular context." [00:17:30]

"To my mind, racelessness is synonymous with limitlessness and there are two ways that limits get placed onto us. We internalize limits and then place limitations on ourselves." [00:57:00]

About Our Guest:

Dr. Sheena Michele Mason is an influential scholar, educator, and advocate for antirace/ism. As an Assistant Professor of English at SUNY Oneonta, she has dedicated her career to dismantling racism through innovative approaches.

Sheena holds a Ph.D. in English with distinction from Howard University, specializing in African American, American, and Caribbean Literatures. She is the innovator of the "Togetherness Wayfinder" approach and has authored significant works including "The Raceless Antiracist: Why Ending Race is the Future of Antiracism" (2024) and "Theory of Racelessness: A Case for Philosophies of Antirace(ism)" (2022).

Resources Mentioned:

"The Raceless Antiracist: Why Ending Race is the Future of Antiracism" by Dr. Sheena Mason

The Togetherness Wayfinder framework

Time Stamps:

[00:07:00] - Introduction to Dr. Sheena Mason and her work

[00:11:00] - Her journey from trauma to literature as liberation and life's mission

[00:13:00] - Core thesis: Race as a "dehumanizing apparatus" that creates false hierarchies

[00:17:30] - Revolutionary language: From "Black person" to "person racialized as Black"

[00:20:30] - The Scooby Doo metaphor: How race masks five real categories

[00:23:00] - Creolization theory and the controversy over the new Pope's race

[00:28:00] - Deconstructing crime statistics and racialized data collection

[00:32:00] - Shocking reality: Only 3% of people racialized as Black commit violent crimes

[00:43:00] - Historical analysis: Why reconstruction of race has failed since Douglass

[00:48:00] - Centering whiteness in the abolition conversation

[00:52:00] - Why reform-based antiracism feels "safe" to those in power

[00:57:00] - Vision of raceless futures: "Racelessness is synonymous with limitlessness"

[01:00:00] - Parenting without racial categories and creating new possibilities

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In this episode, host Amri Johnson explores why many DEI efforts have failed to deliver sustainable change and offers a principle-centered framework that thrives even in challenging political climates.

Key Discussion Points:

- Why the "Chicken Little" mentality has weakened DEI's position

- The three keys to effective inclusion: accessibility, actionability, and alignment

- How anti-fragile organizations use inclusion as a competitive advantage

- Why both proponents and opponents of DEI have "hijacked" the conversation

- The difference between practitioners with "skin in the game" versus opportunists

- Moving beyond deficit-oriented approaches to create thriving workplaces

🔥 Standout Quote:

"Metaphorically, when the kitchen gets hot, the chefs stay. Those who are hobbyist cooks are more likely to move to a place they can be more comfortable and hope the heat dissipates." [00:17:57]

Resources Mentioned:

Join our free EMERGENT Inclusion Framework virtual event. This isn't another discussion about group identities, allyship, and injustice. While those things have their place, the focus on symptoms rather than diving into the complexity of systems have not unlocked organizational value as practitioners and supporters have hoped for them to. Whether you're a skeptic or champion, your voice matters in this conversation.

Time Stamps:

[00:01:00] - The concept of "so-called DEI" and why this framing matters

[00:03:00] - Making DEI accessible, actionable, and aligned with purpose

[00:05:56] - Anti-fragile organizations: bouncing back stronger from challenges

[00:07:31] - How DEI has been hijacked by both supporters and opponents

[00:09:40] - The power of principles over ideology in the DEI conversation

[00:13:42] - Chicken Little and DEI

[00:16:44] - Why many activists disappear when leadership is most needed

[00:17:57] - "When the kitchen gets hot, the chefs stay"

[00:19:39] - How DEI became associated with deficit-oriented approaches

[00:22:00] - Highlighting practitioners still doing meaningful inclusion work

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode, Howard Ross draws on four decades of DEI experience to offer wisdom in today's polarized climate. Howard, who brought me into the DEI field years ago, discusses how today's backlash fits into historical patterns and provides strategic guidance for practitioners navigating political headwinds.

Key Discussion Points:

- The shift from a "bell curve society" to a "dumbbell curve society"

- Distinguishing between performative, symbolic, and transformational DEI work

- Why activism and organizational change require different skillsets

- Strategic approaches to continuing inclusion work in challenging environments

- Finding hope in historical patterns of social progress

- Seeing humanity across political divides

🔥 Standout Quote:

"We've gone from a Bell curve society where most people are kind of in the middle... to a dumbbell curve society where everything's on the end and nothing's in the middle. And the notion of working with somebody across the aisle is considered pretty much by both sides to be betrayal." - Howard Ross

About Our Guest:

Howard Ross is a lifelong social justice advocate and pioneer in the field of DEI work. As founder of Cook Ross and author of influential books including "Everyday Bias," "ReInventing Diversity," and "Our Search for Belonging," Howard has consulted with hundreds of organizations worldwide. At 74, he describes himself as "rewired not retired" and continues to be an influential voice in the field. Howard is currently working on a third edition of "Everyday Bias" with his son Jake, focusing on how AI and social media are influenced by bias.

Resources Mentioned:

Everyday Bias by Howard Ross

IDEAS Generation - An organization for younger DEI practitioners co-founded by Dan Egol, a former Cook Ross employee.

The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin - Mentioned by Howard as a transformative book that changed his worldview when he read it in 1966.

Time Stamps:

[00:04:00] - Howard's background in civil rights work and how his family's Holocaust experience shaped him

[00:08:30] - The concept of "dumbbell curve society" and its impact on DEI work

[00:11:45] - The dual nature of DEI backlash: legitimate critique and politically motivated attacks

[00:13:50] - The three levels of DEI work: cosmetic, performative, and symbolic

[00:15:30] - The critical difference between activism and organizational change

[00:33:00] - Thinking strategically versus emotionally about DEI work

[00:39:00] - Finding hope in the historical patterns of progress and retrenchment

[00:44:00] - The importance of seeing humanity in those with different political views

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode, host Amri Johnson challenges us to examine how we put ourselves and others into boxes—especially in the context of identity and inclusion within DEI work. Amri explores the shortcomings of both extreme pro-DEI and anti-DEI positions, revealing how both ends of the spectrum ultimately restrict true inclusion.

Key Discussion Points:

- Three types of boxes that shape our identities

- Why binary thinking in DEI work leads to ineffective outcomes

- The "anti-racist" versus "not racist" framework

- How today's anti-DEI backlash mirrors the problematic dynamics of extreme DEI approaches from 2020

- Creating organizational cultures based on universal principles like dignity, respect, and interdependence

- Why intellectual honesty matters more than superficial niceness

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"Many home runs in the DEI space, in the anti-racist space, in the social justice space that were hit since 2020 did not win games. In fact, they're creating the opposite effect where others are trying to win a similar game in a very different direction."

Resources Mentioned:

- Reconstructing Inclusion S1E6: What is Race Abolition?: Illuminating Racialization’s Complexity with Dr. Subrena Smith and Dr. David Livingstone Smith

"Stamped: Racism, Antiracism, and You" - Book co-authored by Jason Reynolds and Ibram X. Kendi that explores the history of racist ideas in America.

Peter Senge's Definition of Leadership - "Leadership is the capacity for a human community to shape its future."

Join our free EMERGENT Inclusion Framework virtual event. This isn't another discussion about group identities, allyship, and injustice. While those things have their place, the focus on symptoms rather than diving into the complexity of systems have not unlocked organizational value as practitioners and supporters have hoped for them to. Whether you're a skeptic or champion, your voice matters in this conversation.

Time Stamps:

01:00 - The concept of boxes in identity and inclusion

02:00 - The three types of boxes that define our identity

04:00 - How the dynamics between DEI proponents and opponents mirror each other

06:30 - The baseball analogy: anti-racist vs. not racist

08:30 - Strategic approaches to inclusion vs. binary thinking

10:50 - The current political climate and its impact on DEI

13:30 - Self-censoring across different contexts

15:00 - Creating organizational culture beyond superficial niceness

17:10 - The danger of overcorrection in DEI discourse

18:00 - Final reflections on transcending boxes

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode, Fred Falker challenges everything we think we know about DEI. Using the famous nine-dot puzzle as a metaphor, Fred explains why our current approach to inclusion might be holding us back – and offers a revolutionary new way forward.

Key Discussion Points:

- The nine-dot puzzle and invisible limitations

- Difference vs. Distance paradigm

- Why nature doesn't draw lines?

- The problem with current DEI approaches

- Moving beyond categories to connection

- Measuring real impact in DEI work

🔥 Standout Quote:

"The drawing of the line is what divides. And when we divide, it brings in appraisal and judgment. It brings in the idea that something could be less than or more than. All of our bias is created by drawing lines." - Fred

About Our Guest:

Fred Falker is the President of Falker Consulting Group, Inc., an organizational development consulting and training firm. Over the past twenty-five years, he has developed and introduced a fundamentally new and better approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion. This approach goes beyond today's anti-racism and unconscious/implicit bias training.

Resources Mentioned:

- Falker Consulting Group

- From Difference to Distance: Rethinking Diversity and Inclusion | Fred Falker | TEDxClayton

- Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man"

- Dr. Robert L. Williams - Founder of Black Psychology

Time Stamps:

[00:01:00] - Introduction to Fred Falker and his unique perspective on DEI

[00:07:00] - Why Fred initially refused to do diversity training [00:15:00] - The fundamental flaw in how we think about differences

[00:19:00] - "Nature does not draw lines" – Understanding constructed divisions

[00:34:00] - Why understanding groups doesn't mean understanding individuals

[00:37:00] - The distance paradigm: What really separates us? [00:49:00] - Why we need to focus on outcomes, not activities?[00:54:00] - The importance of abandoning old paradigms completely

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

Reconstructing Inclusion with Amri B. Johnson

Season 2, Episode 6: Moving Beyond the DEI (and Anti-DEI) Bandwagon in 2025

📝 Episode Description:

In this episode, Amri explores why traditional DEI approaches are failing organizations and introduces the Emergent Inclusion Framework - a new paradigm for creating sustainable, inclusive cultures. Learn how to move beyond bandwagon solutions and build organizations that generate "thick value" and thrive through change.

⏱️ Time Stamps:

[00:00:00] - Introduction and context of DEI's evolution since 2021

[00:01:00] - The transition of DEI consultants and practitioners

[00:02:00] - Understanding historical challenges in DEI

[00:03:00] - The bandwagon effect explained

[00:05:00] - Introduction to "thick value" concept

[00:07:00] - The Emergent Inclusion Framework explained

[00:09:00] - Relational fitness and organizational change

[00:11:00] - Building trust through transparency

[00:12:00] - New initiatives and resources announcement

[00:13:00] - Special announcement about upcoming project

🔑 Key Concepts Discussed:

- The bandwagon effect in DEI initiatives

- Thick value and its role in organizational culture

- Anti-fragility in organizational development

- Relational fitness

- The Emergent Inclusion Framework

- Building trust through transparency

- Future-fit organizations

📚 Resources Mentioned:

Book: "Reconstructing Inclusion" by Amri B. Johnson

Book: "Diversity and Complexity" by Scott E. Page

Systemic Inclusion Survey™ - A free diagnostic tool to assess your organization's current inclusion practices and identify areas for improvement.

>> Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion on Substack here

In this explosive episode, former legal compliance expert turned DEI strategist Ashanti Bentil-Dhue drops truth bombs about the uncomfortable reality of DEI practice. She reveals why lived experience isn't enough, challenges the notion of "social justice in the workplace," and explains why the $30 billion DEI industry needs serious reform.

Key Discussion Points:

- Why 90% of self-taught DEI practitioners are a red flag

- The controversial truth about "lived experience" as qualification

- Why charging more for being Black is undermining the profession

- The problem with "changing hearts and minds"

- What health & safety regulations can teach us about DEI's future

- The 13 core competencies every DEI professional needs

🔥 Standout Quote:

"If you're saying I, me, my when you're consulting, advising, training, then you're not leading with neutrality." - Ashanti

About Our Guest:

Ashanti Bentil-Dhue is the founder of the Competence Centre for Workplace Equity. With a background in legal and financial compliance, she's leading the charge for professional standards in DEI practice.

Resources Mentioned:

- The Competence Centre for Workplace Equity

- "Be Your Future Self Now" by Dr. Benjamin Hardy

Time Stamps:

04:00 - Ashanti's background in compliance

12:00 - The competency crisis in DEI

15:45 - Debunking 'lived experience'

24:30 - Future of DEI regulation

33:20 - Ethical pricing in DEI

37:00 - Business transformation vs social justice

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.