Episode Summary

The much admired Robin Dunbar joins Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for the second of a two part conversation about limits and leaps of social patterns in humans.

In this episode Professor Dunbar continues his wide-ranging account of the primate rooted factors driving human relationships and human societies. While the first part is focused on social grooming and the role of the endorphin system in bonding, part two expands those ideas into a series of views on our social nature.

Beginning with looking at time investment of the inner core of our intimate friends, Robin shows us the gradations of friendships and the kinds of acts and expectation that correlate with them. His main focus is on understanding the importance our core five friends have in our lives.

He also articulates how humans have scaled the social group size from ancient group size patters of fifty to what is now known as “Dunbar’s Number” of 150 and it’s connection to the Social Brain Hypothesis. The core insight here is that brain size is tied to the amount of computation and skills of diplomacy needed to manage our group size.

From here, Dunbar takes us through a series of examples: courtship, language, and religion and the way humans have exploited existing biological circuits to break through glass ceilings of being cohesive with ever larger groups. Laugher, feasting, ritual, storytelling and other cultural practices help humans find ways around limitation by forging diffuse and weak social supergroups. Ultimately, Robin Dunbar offers us a concentric view of our social reality, explaining the patterns, the leaps and limits, and the tensions of our social nature.

This conversation is one that helps us see who we are in our social story, doing a great deal to make sense of our population journey and how we can use bottom-up (raw feels) and top-down (cognitive knowledge) to build a viable way into a very uncertain future.

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About: Robin Dunbar: Robin Dunbar is Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University. His work in the Experimental Psychology department at the Magdalen College is concerned with ‘trying to understand the behavioral, cognitive and neuroendocrinological mechanisms that underpin social bonding in primates (in general) and humans (in particular).’ Robin is the author of several books, including The Social Brain, Human Evolution, and Friends: Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships. Professor Dunbar is known for advancing the Social Brain Hypothesis with Dunbar’s Number.

Episode #48 Takeaways

• Dunbar's number suggests humans can maintain 150 relationships.
• Time investment is key to strong friendships.
• Friendships provide emotional support during crises.
• Social interactions can be as beneficial as medical interventions.
• Volunteering can substitute for friendships in terms of social exposure.
• Cohesion in larger groups requires superficial cues and shared knowledge. Friendship layers are assessed within the first four weeks.
• Common interests determine the depth of friendships.
• Intuition plays a key role in evaluating relationships.
• Institutions help manage social cohesion and relationships.
• Shared knowledge and folklore create larger communities.
• Religion serves as a stabilizing force in communities.
• Top-down structures provide discipline, while bottom-up structures...

Episode Summary

The equally erudite and jovial Robin Dunbar joins Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for the first of a two part conversation about limits and leaps of social patterns in primates and humans. An Oxford University professor of evolutionary psychology and someone with a facile grasp of multiple sciences and histories, Professor Dunbar offers us a fascinating account of the social roots of human nature.

In part 1—The Chemistry of Connection—we dive deeply into the endorphin system and the how it functions to stabilize social bonds in groups. We come to see freshly how critical a role endorphins play in our day to day reality. Drawing on his rich understanding of touch, primates, and the wildly comprehensive health benefits endorphins, Dunbar illustrates the connections between chemistry, evolution, and the roots of social blueprint—translating it into the very familiar ‘raw feels’ of relationships that inform how we see, think, and feel about the world.

In particular, Robin clarifies how and why social grooming assists us in dealing with unique social stresses that accompany a group survival strategy that primate species have. Further, Robin mirthfully shows us the unique elements of the human social tool kit, which activates social glue of endorphins without the time intensive work of touch. Indeed, the social tool kit of humans relies on the beautiful elements of laughter, dancing, singing, feasting, storytelling, and rituals to foster social cohesion.

The Chemistry of Connection helps us in on our search for to understand what Social Cohesion is and how we can more successfully find it. Thank you Robin, it was a brilliant blessing to learn so much about human nature and our human story with you!

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About: Robin Dunbar: Professor Dunbar is Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University. His work in the Experimental Psychology department at the Magdalen College is concerned with ‘trying to understand the behavioral, cognitive and neuroendocrinological mechanisms that underpin social bonding in primates (in general) and humans (in particular).’ Robin is the author of several books, including The Social Brain, Human Evolution, and Friends: Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships. Professor Dunbar is known for advancing the Social Brain Hypothesis with Dunbar’s Number.

Episode #47Takeaways

• Sociality is a key evolutionary adaptation for survival.
• Group living helps solve problems of reproduction and defense.
• Primates invest heavily in maintaining social relationships.
• Social grooming triggers the endorphin system, promoting bonding.
• Humans have developed social tools like singing and dancing to bond.
• The endorphin system acts as a natural antidepressant.
• Addiction to opiates can diminish social engagement.
• Oxytocin plays a role in mother-infant bonding and romantic relationships.
• Endorphins provide pain relief and promote feelings of well-being.
• The evolution of sociality is complex and multifaceted. Endorphins enhance social bonding and immune function.
• Quality friendships are crucial for mental and physical health.
• Five close friends are optimal for well-being.
• Social grooming is vital for maintaining relationships.

Episode Summary

The highly informed and deeply compassionate Amy Emerson joins Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for a remarkable conversation about the evolving landscape of psychedelics.

With her extensive involvement and leadership in the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies (MAPS)* and their multi-year effort to get MDMA approved by FDA as a therapeutic medicine for PTSD. There are few better than Amy who can speak to the state of psychedelics for medical use in society.

Not only does Amy share her honest appraisal about FDA drug approval process and members of congress on the Hill, she gives us the little known and fascinating history of MDMA. Some highlights are Sasha and Ann Shulgin’s groundbreaking contributions, the reputational damage MDMA suffered in the 90’s, the long-game efforts of Rick Doblin and others, the powerful way MDMA works on the brain, and the remarkable promise MDMA has shown to help people suffering with PTSD. Put together as a whole, Emerson offers us a destigmatized and inspiring view of MDMA beyond the common street descriptions of Ecstasy and Molly.

From MDMA and the Medical Model, Amy then helps us see the many other use-cases for psychedelics that have a long and varied history. Building on issues of trauma and the importance of spiritually reconnecting with ourselves, we walk through the psychological benefits that can come with right-use of psychedelics.

Finally, this conversation opens the visions of what future of psychedelic use in society through thoughtful contexts that track safety concerns and how, much like meditation, these ‘medicines’ can have a place in our society like Buddhist and meditation practices have entered our culture.

All in all, Breaking the Stigma is a podcast of significance, as it invites us to reconsider our biases around psychedelics at a time when our society is challenged by mental health matters like trauma and the pervasive disconnection from nature and spiritual renewal.

*****

About: Amy Emerson is a highly respected leader in the field of psychedelic-assisted therapy. She was Lykos Therapeutics (formerly MAPS PBC) CEO for an important period in advancing MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as a drug with the FDA

She earned a Bachelor of Science in Genetics and Cell Biology from Washington State University and spent the early career involved in roles at pharmaceutical companies, where she contributed to the development of therapies in immunology, oncology, and vaccines .​

In 2003, she began volunteering with the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), assisting with clinical research monitoring. Her expertise was instrumental in establishing MAPS' clinical department and managing the MDMA Clinical Development Program. When MAPS founded its Public Benefit Corporation (MAPS PBC) in 2014 to develop and commercialize MDMA-assisted therapy, Emerson was appointed CEO .​

Under her leadership, the organization, later rebranded as Lykos Therapeutics, completed multiple Phase 2 and Phase 3 clinical trials and raised approximately $150 million in funding. The company grew to over 120 employees, all working toward the goal of obtaining FDA approval for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD .​

Amy resigned form her CEO role in September 2024. Currently she is a senior advisor to Lykos and an independent psychedelic research consultant, awaiting the next big adventure.

*****

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage

02:40 The Evolution of Psychedelic Research

06:10 Understanding Stigma and Its Origins

10:54 MDMA: From Therapy to Recreation

16:33 Therapeutic Applications of MDMA

20:28 Navigating the FDA and Drug Development

24:45 Challenges

Episode Summary

Author, healer, and ceremonialist Christine Olivia Hernandez joins the show for an in-depth conversation on the transformative power of gratitude, the wisdom that flows out of Mayan traditions, and the gifts to the heart and body in cacao. Through the lens of her newest book, Remember Your Roots, we dive into the relevance and importance of ancestral lineages, personal stories of loss and healing, the profound value of reclaiming our histories.

We begin with Christine introducing us to the beautiful, heart-opening practices of cacao. She shares its ceremonial significance in Mayan and other cultures, highlighting its capacity to reconnect us with our health and gratitude. She also addresses the larger challenges of reconnecting with one’s roots, emphasizing the need to honor both the light and shadow of ancestral histories. We talk through her three-phase model and what the framework offers to us for finding genuine reconciliation and growth in the process of returning to our roots.

Later, Christine reflects on her late father’s life and legacy, sharing how her healing journey has been marked by poignant encounters with crows, vivid dreams, and serendipitous events. One powerful moment came when she discovered that her father, Tony “Crow” Hernandez, had helped to build the cultural center where her Remember Your Roots book launch was held!

With a deep sense of magic and authentic optimism, Christine embodies what the path of gratitude and a renewed connection to the ancestral heart can look like. For her this is found in her offering, the Maltyox Method, which blends ceremonial use of cacao, meditation, movement, and gratitude. You can learn more about her work here.

You are invited into The Ancestral Heart, where we find that a grateful heart is deeply intertwined with the heart of the Earth, where a profound sense of belonging and wholeness returns when we remember our roots and reconnect to the immeasurable depths of the human heart.

Christine Olivia Hernandez is the author of Remember Your Roots and ten other books. She is a second-generation immigrant, whose teachers the Maltyox Method, offers cacao ceremonies, and provides spiritual mentorship.

Episode Summary

Deb Dana L.C.S.W. joins the How Humans Work Podcast to illuminate how our nervous systems dance between the ancient survival responses and the instinct to be in states of connection and safety.

As an author, renowned Polyvagal Theory lecturer, Deb expertly and compassionately guides us through the ins-and-outs of Polyvagal Theory (PVT), and how it can help us find a more regulated nervous system. At the core, we explore the powerful, bottom-up role of our vagal nerves play in our ability to find safety and connection. Consequently, this show is also a profound conversation about the role of our nervous systems in healing, relationships, stress, and trauma.

Throughout a delightful episode, Deb offers heartfelt insight into our human experience as she emphasizes the need for co-regulation and the impact of trauma on our nervous system responses as well as the intersection of Internal Family Systems and Polyvagal Theory. Together.

Finally, we explore how environments and collective aspects challenge the nervous systems across contemporary society. Here Deb highlights the importance of creating safe environments for healing and connection has in changing how society handles.

In this episode you will learn:

• How Polyvagal Theory provides a framework for understanding our nervous system.
• What Neuroception is and how our nervous system perceives safety and danger through neuroception.
• What the vagus nerve is and how it plays a crucial role in regulating our emotional states.
• Why Regulation is essential for accessing curiosity, play, and connection.
• The difference between Stress and Trauma responses, and how we can work with them.
• How the vagal break helps manage heart rate and emotional responses.
• Why understanding the nervous system can lead to more effective therapy.
• Insight into the influences on the collective nervous systems, societal dynamics and healing.
• Why creating safe environments is key to facilitating healing personally and societally.

Deb Dana L.C.S.W., is a renowned clinician, consultant, author, and international lecturer specializing in the application of Polyvagal Theory to trauma treatment and therapy. With a deep understanding of the autonomic nervous system and its role in shaping human behavior and relationships, she has become a a leader in brining PVT insights into practical tools for therapists, healthcare providers, and individuals seeking healing.

Deb is also the developer of the Rhythm of Regulation clinical model, which integrates Polyvagal Theory into therapeutic practices, emphasizing safety, connection, and co-regulation as the foundation for emotional and psychological well-being. Additionally, Deb has authored several influential books, including The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy: Engaging the Rhythm of Regulation and Anchored: How to Befriend Your Nervous System Using Polyvagal Theory, as well as the co-edited work Polyvagal Exercises for Safety and Connection.

YouTube Chapters:

00:00 Introduction and Background

02:11 The Role of the Nervous System in Human Experience

08:25 The Vagus Nerve: Anatomy and Function

Episode Summary

The storied and kind-hearted Jai Uttal drops into the show for an extended conversation about music, monkey gods, gurus, India, sobriety, family, and ultimately the spiritual path of healing through love.

We begin with an exploration of Jai’s current practice of hyper-local kindness in a world where that resource is becoming increasingly scarce. From there we dive into Jai’s latest musical offering, Hanuman Chalisa for World Peace. Not only does Jai share with us the intimate practice he’s had with this widely venerated chant for over five decades, but he walks us through the creative context in which his first published recording of the Chalisa came to life. In his telling we gather the rich array of inspirations that bring about his creative gifts.

Gradually, Jai invites us into the richness of his life, as he retells how the winding threads that have made up the fabric of his life came to be. We come to understand the overlapping events and energies of kirtan, India, gurus, dreams, drugs, anxieties, singing, but mostly love and family, have been ripples of his life.

Along the way we hear about his intersections with Steve Jobs, Ali Akbar Khan, Neem Karoli Baba, Ram Das, and others. We hear about his initiation into kirtan, Indian classical music, and his profound relationships that unfolded with musical and spiritual masters. We also hear about the struggles with finding his voice, performing, and managing the pains of life with drugs and alcohol before he found his true loves in his wife Nubia and in becoming a father to his son, Ezra.

In the beginning, middle, and end, the beloved monkey god, Hanuman, walks with us, serving as a back-drop of Jai’s own spiritual journey as he realizes the profound and ordinary teachings love and devotion have in his, just like every other human life. A beautiful conversation that bares the heart in a way that we can’t help but be moved by.

About: Jai Uttal is a husband, father, neighbor, and friend. He’s more widely know for being a Grammy nominated sacred music composer, recording artist, multi-instrumentalist, and ecstatic vocalist. Jai combines influences from India with influences from American rock and jazz, creating a stimulating and exotic multi-cultural fusion that is truly world spirit music.

Jai has been leading, teaching and performing kirtan around the world for close to 50 years, creating a safe environment for people to open their hearts and voices.

In this snap, bonus episode, show host Jef Szi riffs on what he is calling, 'Alpha Masculinity,' as it emerges alongside Donald Trump election to a second presidential term.

In his eclectic style, Jef begins the show sharing his experience on a beautiful November night in San Francisco and going to see Leif Vollebekk in concert with his wife. Contrasting that with the pre-show UFC experience, Jef leans into evolution, mating strategies, and ironies that are unfolding as the majority of American Voters embrace the "big man" attitude and style of Donald Trump.

With curiosity, critique, and invitation, Jef invites us to dive into the instinctual draw toward a renewed Alpha Masculinity with nuance.

Calling on the stories from his late friend, Brent MacKinnon during the turmoil of the Vietnam War as well as the gift of artistry Leif demonstrated in his show, Jef calls us forward into this conversation using all the sensibilities to illuminate the deep need to reconcile ourselves with this force and to find our way with the complexities it presents.

Episode Summary

In episode 42, we take a deep dive into the realm of myth with insightful and heartfelt Chris Skidmore. As an astrologer, psychotherapist and host of the On the Souls Terms Podcast, Chris helps illuminate the meaning and embedded knowledge hidden inside the 1800 year old Roman novel: The Golden Ass. This text is where the first telling of The Marriage of Eros and Psyche is found. Together, Chris and your show host Jef Szi take an extended journey into these rich and poignant tales that are saturated with symbolism, archetypes, relatable folly, and knowledge that help us make sense of our own human condition.

The show begins with Chris sharing about his recent trip to Greece and Italy—the actual landscape where these stories took place. From there we build a Jungian context in the spirit of Marie Louis Von Franz before a recounting of The Golden Ass, where the main character, Lucius, accidently ends up being turned into an ass. Caught is ass-form, Lucius experiences a great deal of folly and suffering. Moved by the elements in the story, Chris and Jef explore the meaning and medicine this overlooked tale offers as we seek to reconcile our own lives with the greater forces and events we experience.

Next, they then turn their attention the Psyche and Eros story. Recounting the events of this monumental myth around love and soul, they drink deeply from the profound images and details found there. In particular, we come to see how this myth offers insights and teaching into the journey of love, of maturation, and our complex dynamics that come with individuation.

With a superb attention to the heart along with beautiful renderings and teachings found in The Golden Ass and The Marriage of Eros and Psyche, Chris offers us perspective on our humanity while simultaneously fostering our connection to the artistic and soulful roots of the ancient Greco-Roman imagination.

About Chris Skidmore: Chris Skidmore is a psychotherapist, astrologer, biodynamic cranial-sacral therapist who resides in Bali. He is also the host of On The Soul’s Terms Podcast. You can learn more about Chris work and check-out his podcast by going to his website.